Author Topic: Southern rifle - NC or TN (Read 5212 times)

AZshot · « **on:** June 27, 2021, 04:38:48 PM »

I did not buy either of the rifles I found earlier on my Appalachian trip, but I DID buy one, thanks to Cades Cove for his great tips. I picked one that the seller says is:

Isaac Sherrill - 5th gen blacksmiths on John's River, 5th gen Indian Traders. Sherrill famil prominent in TN & NC.

John Sevier was married to a Sherill.

I don't know where/who any of that was, I just copied it down to research when I get home.

Late 1700s, orig flint converted to percussion. It has a wood butt, no buttplate, but does have a metal piece on the top, no toeplate. Has a maple stock, cheekpiece, and was slightly cut down. I had 3-4 to choose from, and this one just spoke to me.

AZshot · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2021, 04:40:47 PM »

More pics. I'll be out of internet service for a day or so, but appreciate any comments.

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2021, 07:03:50 PM »

... You got a good one,.... Michael Briggs and Gerald Neaves are the opinions I would respect,.... from my limited knowledge of the area,... I think features are upstate South Carolina mountain region,... what is barrel & overall length, and calibre,...? ... iron heel insert on the no buttplate is a great feature,... well done,... CCF

AZshot · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2021, 12:43:11 AM »

Thanks, I unwrapped it to get the shots, but didn't really measure. I need to find a good box or plastic gun case, quick! It has to be shipped home, won't fit in the airplane's size limits! I've stopped in several places, no boxes long/sturdy enough.

The seller said the rifle has been cut down, probably because of the usual reasons, wear or just to make it handier. I did like the dots on the muzzle, and the sight and nose cap sure look original, but it's only about 55-60" overall. Didn't measure just the barrel. Eyeballing the bore, I'd guess about 38 caliber. Maybe .40. The stock is curly so I assumed maple, but after thinking about it while driving around with it in the back, I need to take a close look. May be walnut, just a highly figured piece. I like the scooped cheekpiece, and the "S" snake carvings under it. I just don't know enough to say what it is. Will talk to the experts more when I'm home.

okawbow · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2021, 01:17:37 AM »

Some hard ski cases are long enough to work. Wrap the gun in layers of bubble pack and pad the ends well.

wildcatter · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2021, 04:38:03 AM »

Appreciate you sharing your rifle, its a dandy! Hope you can figure out a way to get it home, the ski case seems like a good idea. Rifle has some interesting details, I would love to see the rear entry pipe if it has one. The triggers have some interesting detail, as does the trigger guard. The iron heel or heel only and the elongated fluted cheek rest are definitely features seen on other Upstate SC rifles. Don't typically see maple in Upstate SC guns, mostly walnut and the occasional fruit woods, but can't rule out maple. The double incised lines have a NC feel. I would be interested in hearing what Michael and or Gerald have to say. You did well!!

Matt

AZshot · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2021, 02:35:39 PM »

Thanks for the ID ideas and box ideas.

upload picture search

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2021, 03:12:18 PM »

I thought I posted this last night but must not have.

The UPS Stores can make you a 4x4 box at whatever length you need. I seriously doubt they will pack it for you.

Take some balled up newspaper and place in the bottom to insure ends of rifle are TIGHTLY held in the center of the box and so there will be NO back and forth motion. Shippers WILL drop it on the ends and if loose most likely will break the stock. I wrap the rifle in bubble wrap stand it in the center of the 4X4 box then use crumpled news paper all around it. Then use more balled up news paper on the top and tape the ends closed with fiberglass tape. Should weather the trip in good shape unless run over by forklift are not packed tight enough.
Dennis

Tanselman · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2021, 04:46:44 PM »

Dennis has provided very good advice. I would only add that I would run the bubble wrap about 2 inches past each end, then tape that extra length into a tight, bubble wrap ball or wad around the muzzle and butt, firm enough in place so it cannot move, so there is VERY GOOD padding for a couple inches on either end of the rifle. Without the extra padding at muzzle in particular, if dropped [which it will be], the muzzle can at times punch through the loose bubble wrap or newspaper between it and the end of the carton. The firm padding at end of barrel [and tip of butt plate] softens any hard jarring, and prevents popping a muzzle through the end of the carton. Shelby Gallien

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2021, 05:52:42 PM »

Nice. That's a beauty. Thanks for sharing.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2021, 07:59:09 PM »

Great rifle and good for you on finding it! will be a great addition to your holdings. We appreciate the opportunity to see it and thank you for showing it.
There could be a moral to this story: if you are going into 'gun country,' drive, don't fly. More time taken, more hassles, but much easier to get things back home. And, maybe a lot more of them.
Dick

Collector · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2021, 11:34:23 PM »

Just some thoughts on shipping alternatives.:
1.) Have it brought to the CLA in Lexington and then transfered and relayed back to you within driving distance. Network through CLA members to see what is possible.
2.) Build a plywood box, wrapping extensively in bubble wrap as per recommendations here and ship via Greyhound Bus Lines. I've had upholstered furniture shipped coast to coast and was very happy with their services.
Good luck!

AZshot · « **Reply #12 on:** June 29, 2021, 03:25:41 PM »

OK, I'm going to build a box and use UPS. Have a few long cardboard ones from UPS that I picked up, will play with them in the hotel room.

Tanselman · « **Reply #13 on:** June 29, 2021, 07:40:10 PM »

When using cardboard, another way to really protect the rifle inside is to purchase at Lowes, Minards, Home Depot, etc. the cheapest sheet of 1" foam insulation board. It's pretty cheap stuff and very easy to cut. Just cut about half way through with a pocket knife, then "pop" it apart along the cut line, breaks easily. It really absorbs hard jars during shipment.

I like to cut a square/rectangle the size of inside end of empty box, then push it down to the bottom for the pre-wrapped muzzle to rest against...and two stacked pieces is even better on the muzzle end. Also like to cut strips the length of the box and width of two longest walls, and insert inside, then measure gap that's left on two shorter walls and cut strips to slid in against those walls. You've built a very strong, safe, bump absorbing wall around the center cavity where the rifle rides. Then fill all the void around the wrapped rifle with chopped up foam board pieces, balled up old paper, foam peanuts, or any other light filler, to lock the gun tightly into the center of the cavity. Good to fill top of box above wrapped butt of gun with another piece of the foam, then shut and tape end of box. The inside foam walls really protect the rifle from a lot of jarring, jolts, and drops. This may sound difficult, but the foam is very easy to slice, pop pieces off, and insert. If too big for your car, simply cut sheet to smaller size, and insert the inside strips in shorter pieces... they will stay in place as you fill the carton and still do the same job. Left over foam board can be cut/chopped up for use as small filler pieces - or just hide it under the bed in the hotel room since they never look there when cleaning rooms! Shelby Gallien

AZshot · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 AM »

Thanks for all the packing advice. It's on the way, I used UPS, double boxed. Was quite expensive, but hope to get it a few days after I get home.

AZshot · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2021, 04:03:37 AM »

I've asked Mr. Briggs, he said he's not sure about it's origin (only collects NC rifles). I'd be pleased if it's from upstate SC, or eastern TN like the seller thought. Anyone heard of Isaac Sherril? I'll post more pics when I get it home.

Hlbly · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2021, 05:41:57 PM »

There is a town in SW NC called Sherrills Ford. I think your gun is from that area or nearby in NW SC.

AZshot · « **Reply #17 on:** July 05, 2021, 12:11:05 AM »

Hi, can you tell me why you think that? My wife is the genealogist, and says you should always ask for the documentation or evidence, because so many names in America were in many states. the seller had all that I wrote above on a tag on the rifle, but again, no reason why he thought it was Isaac Sherrill.

Hlbly · « **Reply #18 on:** July 05, 2021, 12:22:01 AM »

You have been calling it an Isaac Sherrill so I assumed the gun was signed. If it is not signed, forget trying to pin it down and call it a southern gun.

AZshot · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2021, 04:51:57 AM »

No, it's not signed. That's the thing I'm trying to figure out why the seller thinks that. Provenance maybe. But I agree, it's going to be less certain without initials engraved in it.

Tanselman · « **Reply #20 on:** July 05, 2021, 06:39:54 AM »

The obvious suggestion here, which everyone is probably thinking, is why not contact the seller again and ask him how he arrived at the Isaac Sherill attribution, since he is the one with that knowledge, rather than anyone on this board.

Jerry Noble & Tom Moore, in their "Gun Trade In America" compendium on American gunmakers, gathered all known names from all significant sources to assemble their book. They have the following two entries:
1) "Sherill, Isaac - Burke Co., NC, fullstock percussion rifle. Source: Ed Dorr." [no info provided on who Ed Dorr was/is]
2) "Sheril, Franklin, Jackson, Jacob, Iredell Co., NC, all possible gunsmiths around 1850" Source: Bivens; Whisker et al
"Gunsmiths of the Carolinas." [note - I did not find this reference in Bivins]

The Whisker source above has two conflicting entries, i.e. same man with different first name/initial:
1) "Sherril, A. (1800- ) 1850 Iredell Co., NC. In his shop were his sons Franklin, Jackson and Jacob, listed as 'laborers.' " US Census
2) "Sherril, Hiram (1811- ) 1850 Iredell Co., NC. In his shop were his sons Franklin, Jackson and Jacob, listed as 'laborers.' " US Census

Whisker illustrated an A. Sherrell full-stocked flintlock rifle, p.156, very different from the "attributed" rifle we are discussing. Unfortunately Whisker did not state if the rifle was signed or attributed by its owner. Whisker often accepted the owner's statement on who made a rifle at face value without more details. In this case, since it has an initial with last name, I would suspect the barrel was signed that way, since attributions usually have the full name... to make them look more official.

IF, IF, IF ... this rifle is made by Isaac Sherrill of Sherrill's Ford, then the man would most likely be Isaac Sherrill, b. Aug.1781 at Sherrills Ford, NC, and died Sept 1856 at Sherrills Ford, Catawba Co., NC. Sherrills Ford started out in Rowan Co., became part of a couple other counties as new ones were formed, and ended up in today's Catawba Co. The only reference to this man's occupation is in the 1850 census. That year he was living in Iredell Co., NC [ note it is the same county as the above reference to Hiram/A. Sherrill above], was 69 years old and listed as a "farmer." I could find no reference to his being a gunsmith, although at times other gunsmiths were listed as farmers when they owned a farm of significant value. This Isaac Sherrill had parents Moses and Martha Osborn Sherrill, and married Mary "Polly" Hibbits on July 22, 1835, in Catawba Co. Isaac died at Sherrills Ford, Catawba Co., NC in Sept. of 1856 and is buried in the Sherrill Family Cemetery at Sherrills Ford.

I would lean toward a NC origin for this interesting rifle, whether made by a Sherrill or another gunsmith, based on its stock architecture, and one small detail. The lower butt molding is a double line terminated under the guard with a small "S" figure. That double line with a small, "wavy" S figure is very similar to how the Bryan gunsmiths of Rowan Co., NC, did their lower butt moldings, which were carried into central Kentucky and seen in the Lexington School rifles by the Bryans and related gunmakers. While the S is standing in this case, rather than horizonal as on Bryan rifles, it remains very similar in overall design, and I have never seen that detail on a TN rifle.

Shelby Gallien

AZshot · « **Reply #21 on:** July 05, 2021, 02:57:05 PM »

Thanks for posting all that history and the thoughts on the "S", which the seller did mention as a NC feature. I did contact the seller again a day or two after I bought it. But I was on the trip, driving through remote parts of the Appalachians with not very good phone/internet, and he hasn't answered yet. So I thought maybe he's someone who doesn't do much on email or the internet, and thought I'd try to corroborate some info here. I'll report what he says if/when I get a reply from him. I believe he said he bought it from a well known mountain rifle collector, but don't want to write that down until I am sure that's what I heard. If so, then I can call that guy too.

AZshot · « **Reply #22 on:** July 05, 2021, 06:44:12 PM »

I can't wait to get the rifle back here at my home. Shipped it UPS as you know, it took the packer 3 days because she said "she wanted to pack it right." We shall see...

I really like the "S" features, thanks again for that info. Below are a couple of them, lightened up the photos. Check out those triggers! Some of the screws have decorative filing too, if I recall. I think you can see on it the trigger shot. Will do more when it arrives.

AZshot · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2021, 09:31:37 PM »

Still waiting for it's arrival via UPS, studying the pictures I took before packing it to learn more. Moving from the wood to the lockplate area and metal. Can I get some help with the below?

I assume this was flint, converted to percussion. I see wood missing in front of the drum, and an old brass pin repair. The wood behind the rear of the lock looks replaced too, and may be walnut whereas the rest of the stock looks to be maple or cherry.

The trigger tip is curved back. I read that can be a NC rifle feature somewhere. IF the gun came from a smith schooled in Rowan Co., is this a clue? Does the tang screw coming through the trigger plate help ID? Would you date this from the late 1700s, perhaps 1790 or so?

I did talk to the seller again. I can reveal that this gun was owned by David Byrd. He and the next owner (who I bought it from) think it's a Sherrill rifle, but from Green Co., TN, not Catawba area NC. But the Sherrills seem to have moved West, as many did...so maybe that's right.

Was this lockplate originally flint? Or was the entire lock replaced after flint? The long curved hammer appears unusual, I'm assuming it was made during conversion to meet the location of the nipple, using the original lockplate. But I don't know what I'm looking at. The initials seem to be "L. M." on it. Is this a known lock? Was it flint?

(click image for larger or https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51297393394_5a94159b39_h.jpg for even larger)

JTR · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2021, 10:38:10 PM »

From my experience, I'd doubt that rifle was ever a flintlock.
First off, it's a single bolt lock plate. Now, single bolt flint locks were made, however I don't think this is one of them.
However, the lock fits the mortice well, and I believe it is original to the gun.
Features pointing to an original percussion lock are the engraved line around the entire perimeter of the plate. Add to that the area of the plate right in front of the drum, there is no room on the lock plate for a flint pan and frizzen to be mounted originally.. Also, no plugged holes for a frizzen spring that I can see. Also the missing wood ahead of the lock is generally burned away by the chemicals in the percussion cap, and not from a flintlock. Throw in the single bolt lock plate, and I believe this to be an original percussion rifle. As for year made, I'd add about 50 years to your 1790 time frame.

This is just my opinion, and others may vary.

In the end, it's still a nice rifle, no doubt about it.

News:

Author Topic: Southern rifle - NC or TN (Read 5212 times)