Patchbox pattern similarities-comments please

[WESTbury]

Something I've noticed with Lancaster daisy patchboxes, on original rifles, is that many almost look to have been made by the same supplier. Attached is a photo of two examples.

Also, some of these patchboxes have five segments for the hinge and others have seven segments. Could that have been the preference of the patchbox fabricator or a function of the width of the patchbox lid? Attached is another photos of two examples. RCA 70 was Lot# 3453 Poulin's 10-21-2019.

[Seth Isaacson]

Some of the bigger firms in Pennsylvania in the percussion era produced furniture for the gun trades. Consider the widespread use of the "National Road" patchbox. I wonder if there was a Lancaster area shop that supplied the trade with brass furniture? That would certainly make a lot more sense than everyone casting their own. Anyone have any evidence of who it may have been? Without markings, it would be hard to say for sure, but there might be some documentary evidence if someone's shop is documented to have had a lot of castings on hand in their will or if there are receipts/ledgers for gunmakers showing them buying brass components from another regional shop.

[WESTbury]

Thanks for your input Seth.

Below are the links to the Morphy and Poulin Lots I mentioned in this post.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__RELIEF_CARVED_FLINTLOCK_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_SIGNED_-LOT479280.aspx
https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/lot/56249474/lancaster-pattern-flintlock-with-powder-horn-?q=LANCASTER&sortOrder=0

[cshirsch]

Here's an unusual variation that I have not seen anywhere else.

[Jtown]

WESTbury,
 I think the number of segments on the patch box hinge may have something to do with the shape of the stock. The flatter stocks would have five. the rounder ones would have seven. The more segments the less chance of binding. Just a thought.
 Walt

[Dave B]

I was only a member of the KRA a short period of time 3-4 yrs but the one trip made in that time to the show in Carlisle PA was an amazing experince. I was able to hold and examine many originals. One of the things I was able to aford was in the odds and ends section where they had books and pieces of old guns. One gentile man had bags of thin metal paterns for patch box parts that had been collected by Carl Pipert. They were made from brass but too thin for actual patch boxes but perfect for tracing out a pattern on brass to be cut out by the young aprentice. I would be willing to bet that they had made patterns that were being used by  the various shops. The pattern I have is for a classic susquahanna patch box finial. I have managed to loose it in rearanging the shop but the brass is maybe  .020 or less. this is what it looks like IIRC.

[WESTbury]

WESTbury,
 I think the number of segments on the patch box hinge may have something to do with the shape of the stock. The flatter stocks would have five. the rounder ones would have seven. The more segments the less chance of binding. Just a thought.
 Walt

I was also wondering if the width of the door could factor in. The door/lid of the top patchbox in the first picture I posted is 1-5/16 wide. Do not know about the width of the others.

[WESTbury]

I would be willing to bet that they had made patterns that were being used by  the various shops. The pattern I have is for a classic susquahanna patch box finial. I have managed to loose it in rearanging the shop but the brass is maybe  .020 or less. this is what it looks like IIRC.

That is a great observation and I believe very plausible. Some that I have observed so far, particularly the Lancaster type daisy patchboxes, look to be nearly exact duplicates.

[WESTbury]

Many thanks to those that have responded to this post on patchbox similarities. This may be a well ploughed subject but some new opinions are always welcomed.

[mr. no gold]

I was told that the 'Baum' patchbox side plates were very much like those of Riedy. I compared them and there does seem to be a strong similarity between them. This appears to lessen as time goes on and the 'Baum' variety become thin and lace like. Just a thought that may have some validity. Baum was born inn the East and migrated westward. He may have stopped for a time in Bucks County and then on to Berks for a time. Between traveling and gun building he seems to have been a busy fellow.
Dick

[WESTbury]

Thanks for your insight Dick, appreciate it.

Some of the rifle stockers did seem to follow the advancing frontier. I would imagine that they may have been influenced by the work of other stockers as they relocated.

Kent

[WESTbury]

Here's an unusual variation that I have not seen anywhere else.

Here is a link to photos of a rifle with a very similar patchbox on a J GRAEFF signed rifle.



https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2011/10/october-25th-auction-at-cowans-part-4.html

[mr. no gold]

As Mr. Hirsch has pointed out, there have been variations on the standard 'Lancaster Daisy' box. Wm Lechler eliminated one of the ends of the volutes that appear on the side plates. Someone posted photos of an example sometime ago, (years?). As I recall it was the rear volutes, top and bottom, closest to the butt plate. The missing detail is the forward cap. Other than that they look about the same.
Dick

[Dobyns]

another Daisy, this from Abraham Schweitzer

[cshirsch]

Here's a variation by J. Guest.

[mr. no gold]

The Guest box side plates are similar to the Lechler gun shown here sometime ago. Notice that the opposing ends of the volutes are filed down, and the daisy stands alone without the bottom volute or the 'ear' found on the top. Regarding the 'daisy box' it seems that the more you look, the more you see and it isn't always the same details. Good subject and worth examining. Thanks everyone!
Dick

[VP]

Here is a signed John Hagy rifle with the same patchbox. He worked in Cocalico Township, Lancaster County.

[WESTbury]

Appreciate everyone's participation, photos, and comments so far. This is great info for study and understanding.

[Dave B]

This is Lehigh daisy patch box on a A. Kiser rifle.  It has a slight variation on the theam shown so far.

[WESTbury]

This is Lehigh daisy patch box on a A. Kiser rifle.  It has a slight variation on the theam shown so far.

Dave---Thanks for posting the photo. The side plates are not very different than most Lancaster daisy patchboxes. The daisy finial isn't either.  As you say a "variation" and very nice. I like it.

I've read some speculation on the significance of the daisy to the German American gun stockers. It does appear in some of their furniture carvings as well.

How wide is the door/lid?

[RAT]

Going back to the original post... case in point... the notch. Many (not all) of these original parts were cast... not fabricated from sheet as we do today. If multiple rifles have exactly the same... not kind-of-similar-style... parts. And if you have access to examine the original. Check to see if it's cast. If the parts were cast, they were probably sold as standard parts. If that's the case, who made the rifle and who they may have been associated or worked with, is probably irrelevant. I'm not connected to Lancaster, but I can buy the same daisy patchbox out of TOW as anyone else today. Apparently it wasn't that much different in the 19th century.

[WESTbury]

Going back to the original post... case in point... the notch. Many (not all) of these original parts were cast... not fabricated from sheet as we do today. If multiple rifles have exactly the same... not kind-of-similar-style... parts. And if you have access to examine the original. Check to see if it's cast. If the parts were cast, they were probably sold as standard parts. If that's the case, who made the rifle and who they may have been associated or worked with, is probably irrelevant. I'm not connected to Lancaster, but I can buy the same daisy patchbox out of TOW as anyone else today. Apparently, it wasn't that much different in the 19th century.

RAT---I agree with the premise of your post that there were very probably suppliers of rifle furniture, barrels, locks, etc extant in Eastern Pa. particularly after the Rev War. These vendors if you will, may have supplied components to those gunsmiths that produced muskets for Pa during the Rev War. Many as we know were located in Lancaster and counties east of Lancaster. Those muskets were undoubtedly of the British Land Pattern and had cast brass furniture. Also, we do know that boring mills had been established in eastern Pa prior to the Rev War.

Attached is a photo of the interior of the patchbox of the upper rifle in the photo of my original post. You can judge for yourself whether the patchbox brass components were cast or not. The interior of the door is visible and does not "appear" to have a rough casting look to it. Appearances can be deceiving, particularly in photography.
 

[RAT]

I had hoped Eric Kettenburg would have jumped into the conversation. He wrote an article several years ago about the similarity of cast patchboxes on a couple of rifles. The article didn't go into the conjecture of a Pennsylvania commercial source for these, just that they appeared to have come from the same master pattern, and therefore were probably produced in the same shop. I haven't looked lately, but I don't think the article is still on his website. I'm going on memory only.

[Dave B]

The patch box door on the A. Kiser rifle is .962" wide.  I tried to nibble down a snickers bar to fit in the cavity...... but I got a little carried away with the nibbling part. Just a snickers wraper dosnt count i suppose.

[DaveM]

Kent, I was looking through older threads researching a relic I recently obtained. I found your thread and thought I would add this variety to it. Seems like it could be a Dickert? Incidentally I did not find this but it was dug in Calfornia at a gold mine camp.