Religious symbols on rifles

[Pete G.]

This afternoon I realized just why the old gunsmiths used religious symbols on their guns so often. It was to keep them from selling their soul to the devil in exchange for a butt plate installation. If there is a more difficult wood to work than end grain curly maple I have yet to run across it, and if I do I'm sure that I will use it for firewood. I first tried to get smart and make my first rough cut with a jig saw. Blade flexed and I ended up with sort of a half moon taken off one side of the stock. Next I put the coping saw to the other side to get the other half moon removed from the opposite side. Now I had a roughed in shape with sort of a pyramid in the center. Then came the bright idea of Ye Olde belt sander. Even that instrument of destruction had minimal effect, other than slightly rounding off said pyramid and turning it slightly darker (aka burned). Finally picked up one of those little surform tools with the convex blade mounted in a handle that you pull towards the work. This eventually worried off enough little fine flakes to allow work with chisels and transfer color to begin.

I think I am ready for a cold adult beverage...........

[T*O*F]

This afternoon I realized just why the old gunsmiths used religious symbols on their guns so often. It was to keep them from selling their soul to the devil in exchange for a butt plate installation.

I know of a couple of makers who cut a piece of scripture from the Bible, sign and date it, and put it under the buttplate or sometimes just write it in pencil.  The verse chosen usually has something pertaining to the build and will only be found by posterity.

Anyone else do that.

[BobT]

I have seen a couple of southern rifles with "hex marks" on the barrel flats near the muzzle. My Great Grandmother told me they were put there to ward off the evil spirits that made guns shoot poorly, barrels so marked were then called "hexed " barrels. I wonder if this is why people in this area so often call octagon barrels "hex" barrels. 

Bob

[bob in the woods]

I have religeous symbols on all my guns. "Pax"  "INRI" , fish, verse, my favorite hunting rifle has 3 crosses engraved on the crown of the barrel.

[northmn]

I think Pete can take consolation in the fact that some psychologists feel that swearing is good for one, as kind of a release of stress.  Many of the older immigrants into this country to flee religious persecution in their own.  Supposedly one of my namesakes was a minister of a sect not popular in England way back in the late 1600's.  I wish I could remember the whole story of the incident I Had read, but one group was so strict that an English governor had to reign them in with the findings that they were interferring with the "rights of an Englishman".  I believe the classic moon on the rifles and outhouse door had a significance but cannot remember as I had heard several different variations. I kind of like Toff's suggestion.  Remember Pete that you can take atonement by installing another buttplate.  Some go on pretty smooth and others can be a pain.

DP

[don getz]

A lot of Snyder and Union county guns had those fish inlays.  I don't know the religious significance of the Fish, but do
know it was rather common.    And, of course, I have seen other guns with Masonic symbols on them.........Don

[woodsrunner]

Don,

The "Fish" symbol is based on overlapping two circles creating what's known in the Sacred Geometry as the Vesica Piscis or Mandorla. The early Christian Church simply extended the lines of the circles creating a fish looking symbol, and it was supposed to be a secret symbol used by early Christians to identify each other....or so I've read!

Within the Vesica Piscis, using a straight edge, a series of triangles, squares and mathmatical functions are created, and from these King Solomon's Temple was built. Also, the pyramids of Egypt, Mesoamerica and other places as well as all of the catherals of the Middle Ages in Europe were designed using the Vesica Piscis. Also the National Catheral in Wash.DC. The tombstones of both Daniel Boone and his father, Squire, are inscribed with the first steps of making a VS, and it is from this as well as other records that we know both were Freemasons.

We have two original Gillespie Rifles found in my home county of North Georgia made from Hanging Dog Iron which have Hex marks around the muzzle. Very common with Southern Mountain Rifles. Someone knowledgable of Masonic symbols will also see these on occasions on old original rifles. The "Free Born" rifle on Mel Hankla's website, as well as Mel's "Folky Artist" powderhorns are good examples of this!

Rich P.

[Dennis Glazener]

Hanging Dog Iron

Rich,
I have heard that term before but if I ever knew the meaning I don't remember it. What is "Hanging Dog Iron"?
Dennis

[Eric Laird]

Dennis,
Don't quote me on this, but I believe it is referring to where the iron came from. If I remember correctly, it is somewhere in southwest NC.
Eric

[Eric Laird]

Dennis,
I just "Googled" this. It's from The Iron Manufacturer's Guide to the Furnaces, Forges and Rolling Mills of the United States.

"Lower Hanging Dogs Bloomary Forge, situated on Hanging Dog's creek, five miles northwest of Murphey, owned by Joseph Hinson or others, Murphey P.O. Cherokee county, built in 1840, has 2 bloomary fires and 1 hammer driven by water, and made in 1856 about 4 tons of bars from hematite ores 4 miles southeast."

Cherokee County is in the extreme southwest of NC. There are a couple more entries in the book. This book is on-line in PDF form, from Google Book Search. I just googled "hanging dog iron" and the first link was to the book. Hope this helps.
Eric

[Dennis Glazener]

Yes I thought to Google it after I made the post. I remember it now. It was not that far north of Union County GA where John and James Gillespie moved in 1849. That's probably where they got their wrought iron for the shop.
Thanks
Dennis

[PINYONE]

I find it a very funny- odd symbol to be on a rifle- Religious symbols on rifles if you think about the 10 Commandants is very strange- 1 of the Commandmants was " Thou Shalt not Kill" most all of the people killed for 200 years were killed with rifles- so if you think about it Religious Symbols on a rifle is very Hipocritical, because you just broke the Law of the Commandmants when you killed someone. Now I know some of you are going to jump in and say Oh thats different, God wanted everyone to have a longrifle to kill someone else- not true- the 10 Commandmants din't have the 11th one sayiing its okay to kill if you put a symbol on a rifle. If you want to disagree with this then you might just not totally believe the "Bible" where its printed. I find that most who think they believe in the Bible have found ways to alter or reinvent what it really meant to say. I believe that maybe hidden guilt was behing the symbols, to give the gun maker piece of mind knowing sooner or later someone would be killed.

[Roger Fisher]

Religious or not I have no clue; but most of my rifles bear a weeping heart inlay in the cheek piece, so it is close to me while I shoot her.  I do believe the weeping heart has meaning of some sort since the old girl made me weep more than once.  Latest was losing a 200 yd offhand match for $ by a doggone measurement frog hair, now that nearly made me seep and weep for certain!

[Dan'l 1946]

One translation of the Commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" which, if correct, changes things a bit.

[dickert54cal]

Mine has IHC in the hunters star----correct or not I hope it brings lots of good fotrune hunting.
PS ---what happened to all my previous posts?  UGGGH Im back to the very first post! 

[woodsrunner]

Dennis,

As noted, Hanging Dog is just above Murphy and not far at all from where the Gillespies were making rifles. Maybe 25 miles in a straight line, but there are no straight lines in the mountains . Union County in Georgia joins Cherokee County in NC.

Iron ore was mined there on contract with the Cherokees before they were run out in about 1838 IIRC. After the Removal ore continued to be mined at least through the War of the 1860's. Old time blacksmiths would say that HD Iron had a very distinct ring to it when worked on the anvil, and was easy to seperate from iron from other areas.

The source of the name "Hanging Dog" comes from a religious custom of the Cherokees of offering as sacrifice a white dog hanged from a tree. At least that's what the old people in the mountains would say.....PETA needs to check this out

[highlander73]

 The weeping heart you're talking about is a symbol of the heart of Christ, also the story I got was the hunters star found on alot of rifles was originally called the "Bethleham star". Dont quote me on that, but I think it makes sence
highlander

[C. Cash]

I find it a very funny- odd symbol to be on a rifle- Religious symbols on rifles if you think about the 10 Commandants is very strange- 1 of the Commandmants was " Thou Shalt not Kill" most all of the people killed for 200 years were killed with rifles- so if you think about it Religious Symbols on a rifle is very Hipocritical, because you just broke the Law of the Commandmants when you killed someone. Now I know some of you are going to jump in and say Oh thats different, God wanted everyone to have a longrifle to kill someone else- not true- the 10 Commandmants din't have the 11th one sayiing its okay to kill if you put a symbol on a rifle. If you want to disagree with this then you might just not totally believe the "Bible" where its printed. I find that most who think they believe in the Bible have found ways to alter or reinvent what it really meant to say. I believe that maybe hidden guilt was behing the symbols, to give the gun maker piece of mind knowing sooner or later someone would be killed.

This may sound a bit too convenient, but I believe that the literal meaning of those words which came down to us through several languages are "Thou Shalt not murder."  Like everything, it's not as simple as believing what someone else like me says, but should be investigated and tested against scripture as a whole.   Just  my .02.

[jerrywh]

I have had more than one of my posts deleted for just saying the word Jesus in one of them. I guess it all depends on who you are. HUH?

[northmn]

Can anyone tell me about the man in the moon as I had heard mixed messages n this one time?

DP

[Knob Mountain]

When you see a Masonic symbol adorning a gun you assume that the owner of the gun was a mason. Many of our founding fathers and early public officials are also known to be masons. These were men that were held in high esteem.  It would make seance that many of our Early craftsmen were also masons. Many of these professional craftsmen also held local public offices. I've often wondered how many of our early gunsmiths were masonic members and often wondered if anyone has ever seen any research or mention of this.

Just my rambling tough ts of the morning.

[rick landes]

If one is very interested in the symbols of the Pa. gunmakers I suggest getting the Penn Dutch Annuals put together by the Pa. Dutch Historical Society If memory serves correct) from about 1942 or 1945. In these the Landis' (co-founders of the Landes museum's rifleworks displays) list off at some length the various signs and symbols as well as some of the old beliefs that would help prevent and/or reverse a "hex" (as in put a bad spell on) on a rifle. One old one was that it was bad luck for a rifle to hit the target mark the first time...so far I have NEVER had that problem. I also speaks of the hunters or Bethlehem star, etc. Quite a nice read and can be found by doing a interlibrary loan search using flintlocks or Pa. Flintlocks, Landis et. al...

[Stophel]

I don't believe religious symbols are really as common as people want to think.  There are a few obvious ones, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (though I am not a fan of Freud....).

The fish is from the Greek word "Ichthus", the letters of which (I-ch-th-u-s) coincided with the first letters of the phrase "Jesus Christ, God's son, Savior" (that is usually the way it is rendered).

[PINYONE]

I can not believe that jerrywh had Post deleted for saying Jesus- somebody must not have heard of the First Ammendment? Most symbols on Longrifles were just that- not every thing ever applied to rilfes or music had meaning- it reminds me of years ago whenever the Beatles put out a new Album- the first thing everybody did was start saying what does it mean- is there a hidden message- in one of his last interviews John Lennon was asked about all of that and he said -it was just Music nothing was hidden- just words- same as the symbols on the rifles- just inlay work.

[Acer Saccharum]

I personally don't mind the mention of Jesus or God, Great Spirit, especially in symbolic decorative elements of the long rifle. I am still waiting for Lorentz Kafka to bring out his book on symbolism on the longrifle.

I do not approve of religious discussion, especially when used to taunt others, or intended provoke hard feelings between members. I may have deleted a post or two that contained such material, and would not hesitate to do it again.

Should you guys wish to get into religious discussions, there are plenty of forums just for that. Not here. This is a gun building site.

Tom