English longrifles

[BradBrownBess]

I got to examine a wood patch box model recently. Nothing about it definitively said made prior to 1790. Thick buttstock and generally overall not as slender as an American made rifle - but a very, very well made gun. One thing seems to get me is that all the examples and pictures of examples are in extremely good condition - not something put to daily use for 150 years as one might expect a trade item to be used, especially if it were a native or poor colonial. That may be a coincidence of course. The British military and ordinance dept were extremely particular and detailed with paperwork and markings etc. If thousands of these were made and they were used in some way by the military I would venture to guess there would be a lot of references to them here and especially in the UK including original paperwork. I have quite a bit of original British military paperwork, muster rolls, merchant orders, shipping manifests, etc dating back to as early as the late 1600's. Its amazing how well these items held up.
The Dewitt book should arrive within a few days. I just find the story and existence of these guns very fascinating. Especially the samples (including the wood patch box models) where the butt stock raised carving has a piece missing at the bottom - but it was originally carved this way - as in the stock maker was working from an example and just copied it.
I think they are great pieces of history but without 100% proof I would not myself venture to say any of these guns are mid 1700's. Its possible of course - I wish Shumway would have documented where he derived his information.

[rich pierce]

We’ve learned a lot since the 1980s. It’s been 40!
years. It would be shocking if Shumway’s estimate was as good as can be done now. I think he may have been thinking that the wooden patchbox models resemble what we thought a 1760s Lancaster rifle may have looked like.

[spgordon]

Last summer I read David Silverman's Thundersticks: Firearms and the Violent Transformation of Native America (2016), which documents massive transfers/gifts of arms to Native peoples by the British, Dutch, Spanish, and French. I didn't take careful notes, but a while back I posted this to give a flavor of the sort of thing he documents (these don't all involve rifles, obviously):

•   1680s French sending 700-1000 guns per year to Natives on western Great Lakes
•   July 1693: New York supplies Iroquois with 90 guns
•   Sept 1693: New York supplies Iroquois with 57 guns
•   1700: New York supplies Iroquois with 400 guns
•    c.1700: Carolina gives Catawbas 50 guns
•   1706: Carolina trader gives 300 muskets to Chickasaws
•   1715: Florida given 1000 firearms, partly to outfit Yamasees
•   1715 Dec: Carolina gives Cherokees 200 muskets
•   1716 July: Carolina gives Cherokees 300 guns
•   1716: New France says 600 guns needed per year for Natives
•   1735: Georgia gives 600 guns to Natives
•   1736: Spanish at St. Augustine host 100 Natives, giving each a gun
•   1732: French at Mobile request 600 trade guns with brass mountings for Indians
•   1759: Louisiana earmarks 900 guns for presents
•   1759: Louisiana earmarks 600 guns for trade

And it goes on and on and on and on and on ...

[RAT]

Everything I've read about government ordered guns intended for distribution to Indians as gifts, payments, or arming for conflict seems to indicate that many were never actually issued to the intended recipients. This involves guns from both US and British government stores. When I say "stores" I'm talking about stockpiles in storage... not a store where you buy stuff. This could explain the better condition of some guns. Many were sold as surplus many years after becoming obsolete.

[Mike Brooks]

If you are looking for an example to copy, look no further:

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/british-board-of-ordnance-canadian-indian-presentation-rifle-by-henry-tatham-4019218

A fine looking gun and likely to be of decent bore size.

Jerry Huddleston  made one of these
 It was my favorite of all the guns I have seen of Jerry's  work.

[JHeath]

Everything I've read about government ordered guns intended for distribution to Indians as gifts, payments, or arming for conflict seems to indicate that many were never actually issued to the intended recipients. This involves guns from both US and British government stores. When I say "stores" I'm talking about stockpiles in storage... not a store where you buy stuff. This could explain the better condition of some guns. Many were sold as surplus many years after becoming obsolete.

The Board of Ordnance "chief's rifle" above was unissued.

[JHeath]

Mike Brooks, I looked up the Huddleston and agree.

[Robert Wolfe]

Yes - that Huddletson Tathum  is a gem. It sold on this site for far less than it should have. Wish I had been on the ball.