New Comer - Help Needed

[Mr_Mayonnaise]

Good Afternoon Everyone!

I am wanting to get into traditional muzzleloading but would like come guidance. I have a percussion 22lr revolver I got as a teenager (which is quite fun but I haven't shot it in years sadly) and my brother previously had some type of .50 cal mountain style flintlock rifle. I always liked shooting that but he sold it some years ago and was never very knowledgeable about it. I have some basic woodworking skills and tools but am by no means an expert.

I am wanting to get a longrifle of some sort but am not sure if I should build a kit gun or buy a factory-made / pre-built gun. What do you think? If you think a kit gun, which kit do you think is best for a beginner? Budget wise I am thinking ~$600 but may be willing to do a bit more. Edit: I forgot to say that I am not sure if I want a percussion or a flintlock. I understand that percussion is cleaner and potentially more reliable but I do love the look of the flintlock.

Thank you,

Sam

[bob in the woods]

Welcome to the ALR , Sam.   If I were you, I'd look for a local muzzleloading club and see about attending their next match so you can view and even handle some guns. Our own club is very welcoming as are most others. You can usually shoot and try out some guns and get a better idea as to what you might want.  If that isn't an option, give the Log Cabin Shop a call.  They have the knowledge to help steer you in the right direction. They have some guns and kits in your price range, but they also usually have a number of pre used guns that might very well be better for the price than the new.

[Stoner creek]

Ok Sam
 Before you get sticker shock, the cost for the gun parts for a custom gun now will be in the $800.00 plus price range. You can occasionally get lucky and find a custom gun for not much more than that $800.00 price point. I would advise that you find a gun club somewhere and ask for some help. There are plenty of options. Factory made muzzle loading guns are in my opinion at the bottom of the food chain, followed by cheapo kits. You’re going to have to figure out where you want to go with this sport. Good luck 🍀!

[Mr_Mayonnaise]

Thanks for the tips! I will look into a local club. I live in Las Vegas so hopefully there is something here.

Log Cabin Shop seems to have the best store website I have found yet so I will be sure to call them if there isn't anything local.

As far as percussion vs flintlock goes, any tips on what might be better for a beginner? Easier to maintain, cheaper to shoot, etc?

[Mike Brooks]

I happen to have a large selection of flintlock custom rifles for sale in the 1500 range at the moment. I'll be posting some of these this week.

[steven baker]

Hello Sam , try your hand at caplock , say 45 cal round ball.Not a bad shooting iron to start with for a green horn.Have fun and enjoy , take care Steven.

[Dennis Glazener]

Take a look at Jim Kiblers kits, very easy to complete even for beginners and you will have a top of the line rifle when you get it completed. https://kiblerslongrifles.com/

If you want more variety in type of gun that you want to own, checkout Jim and Barbie Chambers line of kit guns https://www.flintlocks.com/ also top of the line kits but not as easy to assemble but still fairly easy to assemble if you have basic wood and metal working abilities.

I am sure there are others that would suit your needs but these are the ones I have put together and consider them as being top of the line products.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

Oh, I would highly also reccomend a quality flint rifle. If you go with a lower quality rifle, as much as I dislike them, a percussion might be more reliable. But nothing beats shooting a well designed, quality flintlock, my opinion of course.
Dennis

[Dphariss]

Good Afternoon Everyone!

I am wanting to get into traditional muzzleloading but would like come guidance. I have a percussion 22lr revolver I got as a teenager (which is quite fun but I haven't shot it in years sadly) and my brother previously had some type of .50 cal mountain style flintlock rifle. I always liked shooting that but he sold it some years ago and was never very knowledgeable about it. I have some basic woodworking skills and tools but am by no means an expert.

I am wanting to get a longrifle of some sort but am not sure if I should build a kit gun or buy a factory-made / pre-built gun. What do you think? If you think a kit gun, which kit do you think is best for a beginner? Budget wise I am thinking ~$600 but may be willing to do a bit more. Edit: I forgot to say that I am not sure if I want a percussion or a flintlock. I understand that percussion is cleaner and potentially more reliable but I do love the look of the flintlock.

Thank you,

Sam

Check with Mike Brooks as per the post below. Also what do you want to do with the rifle and where do you live?
The problem with percussion right now is caps. Like all "primers" right now they are in short supply or unavailable, at least where I live.
AND a flintlock, a GOOD one, is about as reliable as percussion anyway. Avoid cheap MLs they can be problematic.
There are other things as well. I can only say I don't build or shoot percussion guns with the drum and nipple.
Dan

[Dphariss]

One other thing that occurred to me when another guild member was discussing new ML shooters and our new ML season in Montana and safety issues for new shooters. Percussion arms once capped cannot be made safe by removing the cap. If there is ANY residual compound on the nipple then the gun may fire. The compound is not only impact sensitive but friction as well so a hammer set on the nipple and then inadvertently pushed to the side etc could cause a discharge. Nor is it safe to pull the load from a percussion gun with a live powder charge once it has been capped. It needs to be shot out. This is not an issue for someone shooting on the range. But for hunters this is something that needs to be understood. Caps that have failed to detonate are the worse.
A flintlock is pretty safe with the powder shaken/brushed from the pan and the frizzen "open" and the cock full down.

[Seth Isaacson]

If you want to get your feet wet without getting too much money involved and aren't very concerned with historical accuracy, there is nothing wrong with starting off with a Pedersoli pistol or rifle or Lyman Great Plains rifle if you can't afford $1,000-$1,500 for a kit or custom gun or aren't wanting to invest that much right away without knowing you are really into the hobby. I'd recommend a completed percussion gun over one of their kits or flintlocks. I have not been impressed by any of the Traditions guns I've handled, so I'd personally avoid those. You can also find decent used custom built pistols in both flintlock and percussion under $700 sometimes and ever so often even a good used rifle under $800.

If you fall in love with black powder shooting, you can then always get something like Kibler kit as a first build and then move up from their if you really want to try building rifles. It isn't a cheap sport/hobby, but it can be a lot of fun. If you take care of your first gun, you can always resell it, or better yet, get one of your friends involved and have them use it until they can get their own.

[Seth Isaacson]

One other thing that occurred to me when another guild member was discussing new ML shooters and our new ML season in Montana and safety issues for new shooters. Percussion arms once capped cannot be made safe by removing the cap. If there is ANY residual compound on the nipple then the gun may fire. The compound is not only impact sensitive but friction as well so a hammer set on the nipple and then inadvertently pushed to the side etc could cause a discharge. Nor is it safe to pull the load from a percussion gun with a live powder charge once it has been capped. It needs to be shot out. This is not an issue for someone shooting on the range. But for hunters this is something that needs to be understood. Caps that have failed to detonate are the worse.
A flintlock is pretty safe with the powder shaken/brushed from the pan and the frizzen "open" and the cock full down.

This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Is there any positively recorded cases of this happening, especially with modern percussion caps? Hammer down on an uncapped nipple is generally always been considered safe from everything I've heard. Maybe I'm wrong. Like I said, this is the first I'm hearing of such a concern, and I don't transport my guns loaded or the like. If this is a real concern, you can always put the hammer down on a leather pad, rubber washer, etc. to prevent such an incident if there was some concern about residue, but I would think removing the cap and simply wiping the nipple off if there is any concern about residue would also be sufficient.

[Bob Roller]

One other thing that occurred to me when another guild member was discussing new ML shooters and our new ML season in Montana and safety issues for new shooters. Percussion arms once capped cannot be made safe by removing the cap. If there is ANY residual compound on the nipple then the gun may fire. The compound is not only impact sensitive but friction as well so a hammer set on the nipple and then inadvertently pushed to the side etc could cause a discharge. Nor is it safe to pull the load from a percussion gun with a live powder charge once it has been capped. It needs to be shot out. This is not an issue for someone shooting on the range. But for hunters this is something that needs to be understood. Caps that have failed to detonate are the worse.
A flintlock is pretty safe with the powder shaken/brushed from the pan and the frizzen "open" and the cock full down.

Many years ago E.M.Farris who was a founding member of the NMLRA was loading a caplock rifle and the hammer was at full cock.
While he was loading the hammer fell and the gun fired,blew the rod out of hid hands and his face was stung.He had the theory that residue from previous caps built up and was enough to fire the gun when the hammer dropped.I am assuming the gun had triggers that had to be set to cock the lock and the trigger released and the hammer dropped.As Dan says,the flintlock is benign in this area and with the frizzen open and the cock at rest a discharge can not happen.The reason for full cocking a caplock that has no first position or safety for the hammer is that the compression of air by pushing a patched ball down can force powder into the drum or bolstered breech.
Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

  First thing is if you buy a lesser value gun kit. That is exactly what you will have when it's finished. Been their done that..!
I would save the money until you can purchase a good quality gun or kit. Because it will retain it's value and then some. That is as long as you take care of it.
 Now about the percussion gun that went off ? Why in the world would anyone set the hammer at full cock and have a cap on the nipple ?  Or did I seriously miss read this ? For the life of me I cannot figure out how else it would have gone off..
  Oldtravler

[Roger B]

Back in Ferris's day, his gun may have not have had a half cock. I would also like know the brand/construction/fulminant used in his caps. I remember  the old DGW plastic box caps used to sometimes leave the fulminant stuck to the nipple with a "dud".
Roger B.

[Mr_Mayonnaise]

Thanks for the tips on the Jim Chambers and Kibler rifles. I like the look of the Kibler and Chambers guns for sure but the price seems a little high for a first gun. Though I have definitely learned that the buy once cry once notion is true for my bolt guns and scopes.

How are the Pedersoli rifles? Do they last well? Accurate? Do they feel cheap in hand? Do the two piece stocks work well? Seems like that is weird.

As far as caliber goes, is there much difference between 50 and 54? I am mostly wanting this for target shooting but may take it hunting some day. I have heard it is easier to get a tag for muzzleloaders than regular hunters here in Nevada. Or would I be better served by something in the 36 cal range?

[bob in the woods]

It depends on what you mean re target shooting.  If 100 yards is on the menu, the .36 would not be ideal. I've seen them work in the hands of someone who really knows their gun, but a .50 would be much better.  Go to a match. A day spent with shooters will answer almost every question you have asked, and you will know what you might be happy with in terms of type, quality, lock,  caliber etc etc.  After watching someone struggle with their equipment , you'll probably decide quickly what you don't want 

[Joe Stein]

Since you are planning to use the rifle for hunting, you should check your State's game laws. Most have caliber restrictions for at least some species of game.

[Seth Isaacson]

Thanks for the tips on the Jim Chambers and Kibler rifles. I like the look of the Kibler and Chambers guns for sure but the price seems a little high for a first gun. Though I have definitely learned that the buy once cry once notion is true for my bolt guns and scopes.

How are the Pedersoli rifles? Do they last well? Accurate? Do they feel cheap in hand? Do the two piece stocks work well? Seems like that is weird.

As far as caliber goes, is there much difference between 50 and 54? I am mostly wanting this for target shooting but may take it hunting some day. I have heard it is easier to get a tag for muzzleloaders than regular hunters here in Nevada. Or would I be better served by something in the 36 cal range?

For Pedersoli, the Pennsylvania and Kentucky models are popular with many recreational shooters and hunters that aren't too concerned with historical accuracy. The Frontier/Blue Ridge model is also pretty popular, but the woodscrew through the nose of the lock and into the stock instead of a second lock screw is rather odd and may be an issue if you take the lock off very often. You can tinker with the sights and what not to make the Pedersoli rifles more traditional, but they will never be as historically accurate as the rifle kits from Kibler and Chambers or the custom builds by the gunmakers on this site nor as high quality, but they could get you started.

Caliber is going to depend on what you want to hunt and applicable hunting regulations. .50 is a popular caliber for target shooting and deer hunting. Many bump up to .54 if they hunt bigger animals. Smaller calibers like a .36 are popular for small game like squirrels and rabbits, but wouldn't be suitable for deer and what not.

[RMann]

Welcome Sam, You are fortunate to find this site that is flush with old timers brimming over with flintlock wisdom and skill, and glad to share it. (There are so many good contributors that poor advice is kept to a minimum.)  I sounded a lot like you, wanting to jump into flintlocks, but no working knowledge/ direction.  I started out with a Pecatonica kit, as I couldn't fathom the price of a Kibler or Chambers. Doug from Pecatonica was so helpful to work with, and I got a great stock with a Siler lock and Green Mt. barrel.  So, with quality components I cobbled together a serviceable rifle, that has proven to be a really good shooter. But my total lack of knowledge is apparent in my hesitancy to remove extra wood to shape a graceful stock.  So for $800 in parts, (I didn't deserve the wood upgrade) I think I built a $600 rifle. But I've had great fun in shooting and hunting with this rifle, and it has been only a rewarding experience. In retrospect, I would have been much better off with a plain stocked Kibler, and then used those lines to guide my future builds to fulfill my own creativity.  But on the other hand, my struggles gave me valuable experience, and firsthand learning. (especially from mistakes...)  Then I discovered this site and my work stepped up, and my 2nd gun, from a plank, is worth the parts, plus maybe a little more!  But the journey has been the fun part for me, and learning from this site, especially the "search" helps, and the needed advice whenever I get stymied, is what makes this hobby so satisfying.  So if you want to take the winding road, take advantage of this site to steer you.  If you want tried and true, take the Kibler shortcut. If you want something in between, go Chambers.  But as others have advised, find a club if possible to see, handle, shoot, and ask in person.  And as an aside, my Chamber's flint locks have proven to be completely reliable in my rookie hands, so don't hesitate to go that route if that is your inclination.    R Mann

[P.W.Berkuta]

For my money I would call Mike Brooks and hear what he has to say. One GOOD gun is a pleasure to shoot and will be less of a headache than cheaper finished guns. If you are handy with tools, then I would look at the Kimber or Chambers kits. Save up your money and get something that you will ENJOY shooting and keep on shooting it not curse it.

[Dphariss]

One other thing that occurred to me when another guild member was discussing new ML shooters and our new ML season in Montana and safety issues for new shooters. Percussion arms once capped cannot be made safe by removing the cap. If there is ANY residual compound on the nipple then the gun may fire. The compound is not only impact sensitive but friction as well so a hammer set on the nipple and then inadvertently pushed to the side etc could cause a discharge. Nor is it safe to pull the load from a percussion gun with a live powder charge once it has been capped. It needs to be shot out. This is not an issue for someone shooting on the range. But for hunters this is something that needs to be understood. Caps that have failed to detonate are the worse.
A flintlock is pretty safe with the powder shaken/brushed from the pan and the frizzen "open" and the cock full down.

This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Is there any positively recorded cases of this happening, especially with modern percussion caps? Hammer down on an uncapped nipple is generally always been considered safe from everything I've heard. Maybe I'm wrong. Like I said, this is the first I'm hearing of such a concern, and I don't transport my guns loaded or the like. If this is a real concern, you can always put the hammer down on a leather pad, rubber washer, etc. to prevent such an incident if there was some concern about residue, but I would think removing the cap and simply wiping the nipple off if there is any concern about residue would also be sufficient.

I just don’t make %$@# up its usually based on some experience of mine or something I have read
/been told of.  Like a friend going to the ER after trying to get a stuck, multiple misfired cap off a percussion revolver. “Modern” caps? I have caps in a drawer out in the shop that are over 30 years old. They appear well lacquered but…
There is a reason I seldom make or shoot a percussion rifle. There are several in fact. Things that have happened to me and to shooters I have met over the years. I at matches I try to stay away from them. Especially drum and nipple guns I often use the shooters head as a shield.
Here’s the deal. I learned long ago that when $#*& goes sideways there is no dramatic music like a movie. It happens in a tenth of a heart beat or less.
I have seen a guy shooting cheap ML come so close to blowing his head off I could not believe it missed his hat brim. I was looking directly at him when the rifle fired. The POS lock fell off 1/2 cock. Neither I or another HIGHLY experienced ML gunsmith at the match could get it to repeat. But it did ONCE. This is the key, ONCE. You only die ONCE. It only has to happen ONCE. If it CAN happen it will. Another thing that is learned over time. Like an improperly timed fly in a lock. It can EASILY cause an AD (thats Accidental Discharge). Yeah I had it happen over 50 years ago. Store bought lock. I learned to adjust the fly after that and just by the grace of GOD nobody got shot.
Put on welding gloves and a face shield and try scratching the compound in a cap sometime. Yeah I did it when I was a kid. ONCE. But I was wearing glasses by then.
You could likely put a 100 or 1000 caps on a nipple and take them off and have no issue. But there is always that one chance. We will not here of people having issues its like people losing hands etc from barrel failures. Your chances of hearing of such things in a publication are NILL. Trust me I know this. Magazines don’t publish bad news. It costs them advertising.
I gotta get to the shop.

[little joe]

Dan You are 100% correct. I have shot almost 50 yrs and have saw some very unusual things things to go wrong. If something is wrong, one chance in a million, I would not play the odds.

[Seth Isaacson]

I'm certainly not arguing for doing anything dodgy, nor was I attacking you. I was just asking if this is was a real, confirmed thing that has happened as this was the first time I've ever seen it mentioned. Regardless, I would not think telling an interested newcomer that percussion guns are inherently dangerous is something good for our hobby when many thousands of people shoot percussion rifles safely regularly. Accidents do happen, but they are usually from severe negligence.

[Dphariss]

AND in talking to a guy who keeps up on such things. He runs the gun counter at one of the best guns stores in MT. Getting primers or caps for at least a year is going to a “difficult”  which means borderline impossible. I had asked about caps since I have a pair of percussion pistols in the initial stages. Something to think about. If you find percussion caps you better buy them if you have a percussion gun.

Dan