Swivel Breech Percussion Rifle Help

[BruceH]

A person I have met in the past has contacted me regarding a Swivel Breech Percussion rifle he inherited.  The barrels are 32 1/2" long.  He is asking for any information anyone can provide about it including a price range as he will probably sell it.  I know nothing of this type of rifle and was hoping I could get some feedback here.  Thanks in advance.

[BruceH]

I guess I probably should have posted this rifle in the Contemporary forum.  I think it may be a kit, but was hoping for some input.

[Tim Crosby]

 I think it is good here, give it some time, you'll get some comments on it before the day is out.

  Tim C.

[OLUT]

An interesting rebuilt swivel double rifle. As you probably know the stock, hammer, most screws, etc are new, but the old brass and swivel mechanism with the round barrels indicate the original gun was probably made around the civil war period. The old, reblued Leman lock was probably original to the gun. The side plate is unique and MIGHT help you identify the original builder. Likewise a search for the names engraved on th toe plate MIGHT point you to the region where the original owner lived. The stock however is much too high  quality for the original design. In essence, the gun was rebuilt to be somebody's shooter.

[Hungry Horse]

 Could the signatures on the toe plate be the previous owner, and the person that rebuilt the gun?

Hungry Horse

[BruceH]

I was not sure about the Leman lock, barrels and the action, but was pretty well sure the rest was more modern.  Thanks for the input.  I will pass it along.

[David Price]

I can't add much to the info that has already been said, accept that whoever did the work did a really nice job.  I don't know what a rifle like that would be worth.  Percussion rifles, even though they are antique, don't bring the value of a flintlock.  If that was a flintlock you would be getting many inquiries. 

That would be a great rifle for a hunter to own.

Five years ago, I purchased an 18 ga. side by side double flintlock shot gun.  It had been restocked, and it had two new L&R Maslin locks installed.  All the other hardware was original.  I paid four thousand dollars for it and was glad to get it.  I have been shooting it every fall ever since.

David Price

[BruceH]

Well, I purchased this rifle and a percussion Taylor & Son double barrel shotgun - to keep them from going to a Pawn Shop.  I have completely disassembled the rifle and have the following observations.  Please understand I am not arguing with some of the previous post - just giving my opinion and observations.

It has obviously had some blueing done.  As weird as it may sound, I do not think the stock has been replaced.  The inletting and such is picture perfect and would have taken quite a bit of effort to coordinate and layout.  I will post pictures before I reassemble and let the reader decide.  It has been refinished for sure.  Maybe modified a little, but I have found another Leman Swivel Breech percussion that was sold on the internet by CS Acquisitions and the butt stock is almost identical.  It has the same butt plate, the same check rest and profile.  The wood on it does appear to have artificial stripes though.  I can not account for the added toe plate on mine.

I am not sure about screws being replaced either.  The few wood screws fit like they should.  The metal to metal screws are so unique, it again would take a monumental effort to replicate them.

The barrels are one .36 caliber and one that I now think is a .44 caliber.  I measure it around .420.  The .36 is a little pitted, but could be shot.  The .44 is too pitted to be shot in my opinion.  The percussion nipples are very old, again in my opinion.  They have a very large inside cavity/opening - but they are in very good condition.  They removed easily.

I am not sure about the ram rods.  There are two different sizes (for two different bores as should be) and they fit well.  However, someone apparently painted them black.  I am going to remove the paint and see what they look like. 

The lock works great and is in very good condition.  Same for the patch box.  The trigger group is in great condition also.

All internal parts are present and in good shape, except for one pin.  The pin I reference is used for locking the rotating plates into a set position.  It is there, but the end of it has apparently worn down.  There are two plates which for lack of proper knowledge - I will call breech plates  The forward one has the pin in it and attaches the barrels to the assembly.  The rear breech plate has a groove (with indentations) in it, and the pin falls into those grooves to hold the rotating barrels in place.  I don't totally understand what i am seeing, but I will post pictures to get some feed back.  Without that pin engaging the detents, the barrels will freely rotate.  The are no other parts associated with the pin.  As best as I can determine, it is a friction fit.  No release levers, springs or anything like that.  You can tighten a nut that threads onto a bolt holding the two plates together to get a tight or loose fit.  If there is something missing - it is not obvious at all.

I purchased the rifle with the intent of cleaning it up and carrying to Friendship next month to sale.  With the pitted barrel and worn pin, I don't know for sure where it is headed now.

[BruceH]

Here are a few pictures of the stock inlet.

[BruceH]

Here are pictures of the front breech plate with the pin.  The pin moves in and out freely.  The pin is held in the "In" position by the rear of the barrels when assembled.






The rear breech plate which is part of the tang.  You can see the groove and detents that the pin engages.

[BruceH]

The two plates partially assembled.





When fully assembled by putting the spacer and lock nut on the bolt that passes thru the rear plate, you can tighten the nut up and fully close together the two plates.  Here is where I get lost.  The pin (when fully in) does not go deep enough to engage the detents.  This is why I think it is worn off.  It is probably an easy replacement by finding the right diameter pin and cutting it to length.  But simply twisting the barrels to rotate them makes no sense as this would be dragging the pin across the detents as it does not float in and out.  It is stationary.  The two plates do not have any method to separate them either, allowing for the pin to pull out of one detent before moving to the next.  Hopefully someone has seen this system before and has the answer.

[Shreckmeister]

A lot of doubles very similar to that one we’re produced in Clarion and Jefferson Cty PA. Check Harriger book. Particularly that plate on the cheek side. Toe plate inscription maybe after Hooks restored it for Murry.

[BruceH]

I have it cleaned and back together and the good news is the detent pin is working better.  Not 100%, but better.  I think the pin is worn just a little on the tip and I now know that the thru bolt nut can be tightened a little more which should get it close to right.

Thanks Shreckmeister.  I am getting some feedback that now leads me to believe that it was not built by Leman and in fact was built by Hook.  Apparently, Leman would sell you their lock and the swivel system was available as a component also.  Now if I could just find some information about Hook.  I am finding nothing.

[Bill Paton]

BruceH,
Nice work to get that far into your swivel rifle. I call that swivel mechanism a 180 degree stop, as opposed to more sophisticdated systems that have release mechanisms with release levers or buttons, etc. The numerous 180 degree stop actions I have disassembled have had FIXED pins in the front swivel plates and the semicircular grooves in the rear swivel plates as yours does. The bottoms of the semicircular groove usually have those multiple drill holes not as cavities for engaging a detent, but simply as the mechanism the smith used for drilling out the curved groove. I have yet to see an original swivel mechanism with a true spring-loaded detent pin or a pin that came out easily, as yours has. The only detent cavities one would want if a detent were used would be the ones at the very ends of the curved slot for aligning the barrels for each shot. Your curved slot seems to have been made too long and then adjusted for proper allignment.

When you get the swivel axle nut properly tightened, the action will have just the right amount of friction to keep the barrels alinged for shooting, but movable for swiveling the barrels. A nut locking device of various types was often used to help keep the tension adjustment correct. Does yours have one?

For me, clockwise swiveling is most natural, but encourages loostening of the axle nut if it has no lock, so some rifleman encourage developing a habit of counterclockwise swiveling.

Bill Paton

[BruceH]

Bill, you have helped me tremendously.  I now understand the components and working relationship of this system.  When I cleaned, oiled and put everything back together - it did work much better and is holding very well.  I was clearly (wrongly) thinking that the pin was supposed to go click-click in the groove and detents.

With you clear description, I now know that the pin is not worn and is working 100% correctly.

The system on this rifle has the front plate stud/axle bolt coming through the rear plate as shown in the picture.  From the back side of the rear/tang plate you first install what I would call a spacer and then a locking nut that has an obvious design for accepting a special tool to tighten it.  Without having seen one of these special tools, I envision it looking something like a simple plumbers tool used to tighten the ring on the bottom of a kitchen sink.  You can tighten it with a pair of pliers without any problems as long as it is still out of the stock. 

It was loose when I first got the rifle and when I reassembled it, I experimented with how snug I guessed it should be.  Armed with your description, I think I have it right now.  As far as the groove itself, it stops at a point both directions which aligns the action up very well.  As far as the pin moving, I discovered that even though it is a typical 1/8" diameter round pin in a round hole in the plate - it will only go in if rotated to a specific point.  When you find that point the pin will slide right in the hole - otherwise it will not go in.  Also, it will not go all the way through the plate.  There is just enough of a head on it to stop it.  I just wrongly assumed it was meant to move in and out as the action turned.

Thank you very much.