Tenn/Southern Mtn. rifles

[horseman]

 I hope that this is the correct place to post this!  I am interested in building a rifle of the above types.  However all of my books are on the Penn.-type rifles.  I need to get a GOOD book on these southern rifles!

 Would one of these rifles built in 1780 have any or all of the following: a walnut stock; a swamped barrel; a barrel length of 42"; a lollipop tang; a single trigger?  I know that brass wasn't used.  And, they had English made locks.

 Thank you for your help and time.  Bud.

[rsells]

Gary Noble (414 N.E. 7th Ave,  Aledo, Illinois 61231,  phone number                   309-582-2852) has a set (4 vols.) of reference books pertaining to mountain rifles.  I love this type of rifle and use his reference books again and again to look at details.  Also, look at the library section of this page because there are several examples of original rifles stored there for reference.  Good luck with your project, and be careful these rifles are graceful and will grow on you.
                                                                              Roger Sells

[northmn]

Go to Ken Guy's website and browse. He knows more about them than most.  One of the issues with the Tennessee in dating them may be that they were built and used up to the 1900's.  I have plans for building a Southern rifle that copies one from 1760 that has a large fowler type lock and a square breeched barrel, with the usual simplicity.  I had asked about single triggers and have been told they were not common.  There is one pictured in the archives caled the whale rifle, but most had a DST.  In the book by Irwin, walnut stocks were common.  A barrel length of 42" would be relatively short compared to many, but is OK.  As to a 1780 buttplate on one I would not know as they tended to the later highly curved plates.  Also some were brass mounted as in a brass trigger guard.  They were built by hand and tended to be somewhat individualistic.

DP

[G-Man]

Surviving documented examples of southern rifles from prior to 1790 (known maker, known place and time) are brass mounted.  However there are a few iron mounted guns that look to be relatively early and might date from that timeframe.  The "Old Holston Gun" shown in Wallace's articles is one as is the iron mounted gun with the triangular finial box shown in Wallace's articles as well as in RCA II.

If I were going to build an interpretation of what a 1780s iron mounted southern rifle might look like, I would keep it simple.  I would keep the architecture simple and early looking, the butt wide.  I would use a guard that reflects the same general shapes of the brass styles being made in Virginia or other known areas, but just simpler and made up in iron.  I would keep the patchbox, if you are using one, very simple - maybe a two piece or a simple geometric shape.  Maybe a spear point tang, but not overly long.

The highly stylized triggerguards. narrow deep crescent buttplates, long stylized tangs, lollipop tangs, etc., seem to have evolved in the 1800-1820 era, give or take a few years.  But we do know that rifles were being made in the region earlier.  Russell Bean was working at least by the early 1790s if I am not mistaken.  

Good luck

Guy

[Ken G]

The late Robin Hale has documented over 50 gunsmiths he said worked in the TN area before 1800 so it seems there would have been plenty of gunsmiths in the area. 
I think the lack of documented surviving guns is a combination of what has already been mentioned regarding these guns just being used up and a good bit of them looking like they were made in the area from which the gunsmith originally was from.  Gunsmiths did not suddenly start building the style rifle we now call a TN rifle.  It had to have evolved over years and the next generation of TN gunsmiths.  It seems to found favor around 1820ish. 
I think Guy is dead on with his description of what one may have looked like. 

[horseman]

  Gentlemen,

 Thank you all so much for the interesting and valuable information!!  I really appreciate it!  I shall look into the four books.  Who is Russel Bean? A relative of Baxter?  The only Baxter that I was able to find was a dentist that froze on Mt. Blanc in France.  Also, who is Wallace and where may I find his articles?  Again, thank you all so much.  Bud.

[G-Man]

Bud - Russell Bean is the first of the Bean family that is documented to have worked as a gunsmith.  He was a son of William Bean, who was one of the first settlers in East Tennessee and founder of Bean's station.  There are stories of some of the older generations of the Beans being gunsmiths, including William, but to my knowledge it is still undocumented.  Anyway, Russell was an interesting character  - grew up fighting Indians by the time he was a teenager and apparently had a violent temper.  Apparently he was a contemporary and well known to Andrew Jackson.  I have heard of one surviving rifle signed by him - there may be others I am not aware of.  I have never seen it, but I think it is dated in the 1790s but there is some uncertainty as to whether or not it is a barrel from an early piece by him, that was later restocked in the East Tennessee style that is believed to have became popular just a bit later, i.e. the banana patchbox, etc. But we really don't know exactly what the early rifles made in East Tennessee in the 1700s looked like, so who knows when the style actually first appeared?  

Baxter was his son - born 1799 and died in the 1850s, and one of the best known makers of the what most think of as the classic style of East Tennessee rifle that seems to have appeared by around the 1820s.

Another one of the relatively early Tennessee gunmaking family were the Bulls (John and Elisha.  They were intermarried with the Beans if I am not mistaken.

Jerry Noble's 4 volume set is the best thing out there on the mountain rifles.  Someone gave his contact info above.  Volume 1 has the most detailed info on the Beans and the Bulls.

"Wallace" is Wallace Gusler, a well known gunmaker, author, and expert in many things related to the American longrifle.  His articles from "Muzzle Blasts" magazine in the past 5 or 6 years would be of interest to you.  

Good luck

Guy

[rich pierce]

I'd use a wooden patchbox for a 1780's iron-mounted, walnut-stocked rifle and use the Old Holston gun as a guide.  I'll go look up the Muzzle Blasts articles tonight that Wallace Gusler wrote about the earliest iron-mounted "mountain rifles" so you can order them from the NMLRA if you want.  He featured one he estimated as 1780's, I think.  Plain gun, short tang, large English lock, walnut stock.  Mark Tornichio (spell?) forges some really nice early iron mounts.

[horseman]

  Guy and Rich, Thank you for the information!!  I'm looking forward to the magizine articles, and, have placed the books on my wish list for Christmas.  Ken, I enjoyed your  site!  I guess you've been told that you bear a striking resemblance to Evertt McGill in, "Oh, Brother"?!

 Bud.

[G-Man]

Bud - check out the ALR Virtual Museum - particulary under "unknown makers - iron furniture."

This piece is shown there - and it looks to be stylistically related to at least one other early iron mounted gun from the 1790s that is in the Museum of Early Southern Decorative Arts in Old Salem, NC.  Although this gun is probably 1790-1800, as another possible variation on style, something like this might not be out of place in the 1780s, maybe with a little earlier lock.  This guard looks like it could have been reused and reworked from a military musket - hard to tell - but some recycled older parts on an early mountain rifle would not surprise me either.    On the other hand, a hand forged iron "rifle" style guard (something with a grip rail) would look equally appropriate on this gun.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4165.0

[horseman]

 Guy, thank you for the link.  I was surprised at the triggerguard on the one rifle.  I think I've seen it called a So. Car., but I also saw where some one else stated it was more of a modern design.  Glad to see it on an older rifle.  Bud.