New Member, New to the Hobby

[smilingjack]

At our local gun shop, there is a display of antique rifles that are on consignment.
One in particular caught my eye every time I visited the shop, and finally one day, my wife and removed it from the rack and checked it out.
We decided it would look great on display in our home.

A deal was made and our 1811 Harpers Ferry Flintlock complete with bayonet was wrapped up and loaded in the SUV.

I knew it needed some work, and for almost 70 years, I've been working metal, wood and every other material that's available.
It's been a tendency of mine when repairing a piece of machinery to make it better than new, but I realize with this fantastic piece of history, any modernization would not only diminish it's value, but it would be an insult to the rifle and the craftsman that built it 211 years ago.

The external problem right now is that the threaded hole in the cock to receive the jaw screw is stripped, therefore a flint cannot be tightened and secured.

I have a small machine shop, and 4 types of welding, including TIG.

When I measured the existing thread that is on the jaw screw, it is ALMOST 1/4 x 16. By ALMOST, over the space of .500 inches, the thread is off .015 inches.
Upon checking the thread on the jaw screw, the diameter is fairly consistent at .250", except for one area where the diameter has been worn down about .030"s.
Also, consistent with thread making tools of that era, the peaks and valleys of the thread are rounded off, and I doubt if there was any standard created at that time.

Originally I thought I could fabricate a tap and die to match the existing thread, fill the stripped hole with a tig weld, and re tap the hole. Probably hard silver solder the damaged threads on the screw and re-cut them.
But, there is no way I can create the existing thread on my lathe to what probably works out to 16.030 threads per inch in order to machine a tap.
However, 1/4 x 16 taps and dies are available.  Then I would fill and re-tap the cock, fill and recut the screw, then figure out how to "age" the modern threads.

I really have no plans to ever fire this rifle, but I think it chose me as it's custodian knowing I would attempt to do the best repair possible

So, I have a few questions to present to the forum, and would appreciate any comments or suggestions as to the best and proper way to do this repair.
Also, would like some idea on what would be the proper luster for the metalwork, including the bayonet. I hesitate to do any serious polishing around the engravings, as they are  showing signs of getting thin.

Thanks for reading
Jack

[Avlrc]

Welcome to the forum.

I know your musket is an antique, but the guys over on Gunbuilding Forum can probably give you the best advice.

[LynnC]

Welcome SJ

If your question is a should I or shouldn't I restore and how far would you go type question, then the antique forum is the place for you. If you have decided you can make the proper restoration and want the expert know how advise then Avlrc suggesting the gun building forum is your answer. I can sense you have the right restoration attitude. Good luck with your project.

[Carney Pace]

I have a reference someplace that the American  military weapons used French threads specification's through most of the flintlock era.

[WESTbury]

Hello Jack,

Welcome to the forum.

As I do not know what condition your HF musket / rifle is in, my advice would be to display the piece with the original cockscrew, which you seem to indicate, you have.

Do you have any photos you may care to post?

Kent

[LynnC]

I believe Carney Pace may well be correct in that those are likely metric threads. The other thing I should mention is you are dealing with wrought iron rather than modern steel.

[Dave B]

Welcome to the best site for cool stuff.  My question is what are your plans for the gun. If you plan on shooting it then fix the loose cock screw. If display then make a lead sheet shim to put in the worn theads running the screw in to form it well. This will give good enough service to hold the flint for disllay purposes. The other thing to consider is the iron is case hardend. I made an error in trying to repair a cracked cocked neck using my acetlene torch. The thin case harded surface cracked  in several places 

[smilingjack]

Sorry for the delay. Mama's day!!

Thanks for all the replies and great answers.

My plans are to display the rifle, but bring it up to a working condition. I really don't feel the need to test its "metal".

Right now, creating passable threads with hard silver solder is very appealing. That would only require heating the metal to around 1200's.
I doubt if this is a metric thread, but I will definitely check into to it.

Still getting the hang of navigating this forum.
Will post photos in future posts. Computers are not my strong point!

thanks
Jack

[smilingjack]

A couple of photos of the 1811 Harpers Ferry Flintlock

[WESTbury]

My plans are to display the rifle, but bring it up to a working condition. I really don't feel the need to test its "metal".
thanks
Jack

Jack,
Excellent choice in not wanting to fire the piece.
A HF Charleville Pattern US Flintlock Musket!
The lock appears to be still in its original configuration.
Congratulations!
Kent

[smilingjack]

Not only do my computer skills need a little work, my camera skills could use some too!
Here's a better photo of the lock.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I really like your display of this great old musket! 
I understand that threads in this period with swaqed rather than cut, so I don't know how that is going to affect your attempt at a repair.  I wouldn't do anything to any of the surfaces of the wood or metal...it looks grand just like it is now.

[LynnC]

From an old Dixie catalog. Metric threads.....

[LynnC]

Sorry. I have not figured out how to rotate a photo

[smilingjack]

Thanks all for the informative tips.
Seems that the jaw screw is indeed a metric thread as suggested.



So what we have here is a 7mm x 1.5 mm thread.
Seems that in modern times, 7 x 1.0 and 7 x .75 are the norm.
After hours of web searching I  found a 7 x 1.5 on ebay.
Tried to question the seller, but he's on vacation until the end of the month.
Really not a problem because this is an "after sailing season" project.
Also not a problem because I'll probably wind up making a tap on my lathe, then create a die using that tap.
This will also allow me to shape the threads more in line with an antique thread by using the existing threads as a guide when I grind the tool bit that will cut the new threads.
Then, I'll use the new tap to create a die to "touch up" the old threads on the jaw screw.
Will be a fun project

Jack

[WESTbury]

Jack,

I forgot to ask if the HF style proof and viewing stamps as well as the serial number are still present on the breech end of the barrel? Also, are James Stubblefield's script initials and script "V" still on the stock flat, opposite the lock?

Another question I have pertaining to the jaw screw is, does the unthreaded shank of the screw above the threaded portion have a Roman Numeral filed into it?

Thanks,

Kent

[smilingjack]

Jack,

I forgot to ask if the HF style proof and viewing stamps as well as the serial number are still present on the breech end of the barrel? Also, are James Stubblefield's script initials and script "V" still on the stock flat, opposite the lock?

Another question I have pertaining to the jaw screw is, does the unthreaded shank of the screw above the threaded portion have a Roman Numeral filed into it?

Thanks,

Kent

Kent
Waited until this morning when eyes were fresh, and using my magnifying headset with LED light, went over the rifle fairly thoroughly searching for any of the markings you made reference to.
Unfortunately none were to be found. The only engraving on the rifle are the ones shown on a previous post of the lock.
As for the Roman numeral on the jaw screw, also shown in a previous photo, the shank of the screw is very scored and mutilated, so if there was a numeral there, it is gone.
However, while I was searching for said markings, and with the jaw screw removed from the threaded hole in the cock, it appears that the internal threads are in good shape, and all that will be required is a re-building of the threads on the jaw screw, a relatively easy fix once I have fabricated the proper die.

If I do come across any of the markings in question in the future, I'll let you know.

My one big regret is that this piece of history cannot talk to me!!

Jack

[Clark Badgett]

Thanks all for the informative tips.
Seems that the jaw screw is indeed a metric thread as suggested.



So what we have here is a 7mm x 1.5 mm thread.
Seems that in modern times, 7 x 1.0 and 7 x .75 are the norm.
After hours of web searching I  found a 7 x 1.5 on ebay.
Tried to question the seller, but he's on vacation until the end of the month.
Really not a problem because this is an "after sailing season" project.
Also not a problem because I'll probably wind up making a tap on my lathe, then create a die using that tap.
This will also allow me to shape the threads more in line with an antique thread by using the existing threads as a guide when I grind the tool bit that will cut the new threads.
Then, I'll use the new tap to create a die to "touch up" the old threads on the jaw screw.
Will be a fun project

Jack

In modern times a 7mm bolt is not a norm. Also, since threads were normally formed and not cut in that era, the threads just  might have originally been 8mm. I could be wrong however.

[WESTbury]

I believe that Clark is correct in his opinion that the major dia. of the jawscrew would be close to 8mm.

On pages 38 to 40 of Pete Schmidt's Vol 2 of his U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets, Pete presented the results of an Ordnance Dept inspection of one hundred HF M1816 musket components. Under the heading PINS are the measurements of the Shank and Screw (threads). The measurements for the threads vary from 0.29" to 0.305". No measurements of the thread pitch were listed. Granted, these muskets inspected were M1816, but the National Armories were creatures of habit and changes to components were made only when necessary.

At Springfield, the cock pins (screws) were forged during the production of the M1816 per an 1823 document authored by Col. Roswell Lee listing the major operations for each M1816 Musket component. The threads were "cut" into the shank. That listing appears in the American State Papers for the 18th Congress, 2nd Session, Military Affairs Vol 2.
I presented the whole of Lee's document on pages 73-74 of my book Springfield Armory Infantry Muskets 1795-1844. The American State Papers are available online.

[smilingjack]

Firstly, my thanks to LynnC, Clark, and especially Ken for putting me on to the fact that these might be metric threads on the jaw screw.

Spent a few hours today checking and measuring, and playing detective.
This is what I've come up with.
The thread in the cock to accept the jaw screw is definitely a M8 - 1.25



Checked this many times to confirm this.

As shown in a previous post, the thread on the jaw screw is a M7-1.5.

So, it appears, that sometime in the past 211 years, probably closer to less than 50 years ago, the original jaw and jaw screw were lost and an attempt was made to replace it, either for aesthetic reasons, or to try and make it workable.

Whomever put the 7mm screw in a 8mm hole attempted to close up the hole with a series of blows on a centering punch around the circumference of the hole to peen over the top of the hole.,
The marks can be seen on the above photo.

It appears that the jaw and jaw screw were definitely matched as the hole in the jaw is 7mm.


It was not possible to run a 8x 1.25 bolt into the hole because of the peening,  so I carefully ran the proper tap in to clean up and relieve the top of the hole.
Have to finish the process now with a bottoming tap now on order, but the thread looks good, and the only part showing any cutting is the peened area.
I was able to get a M8 x 1.25 bolt partially into the hole. Bottoming tap will resolve this.
The cock appears hardened, so I'm glad there's not too much cutting involved.

Now the decision has to be made as to how to treat the new jaw screw.
My choice right now would be to tig weld on a new 8mm bolt with an unthreaded portion very close to the flange of the existing jaw screw that I have.
That would mean cutting off most of the 7 mm thread that is there now.
Then file the welded area down rather than size it in my lathe. Then I would file open the hole in the jaw to accept the 8mm shaft.

Since there is not a rush to repair this, I will in the meantime see if I can find and purchase a proper and original jaw and jaw screw.

Would appreciate any comments and suggestions.
Right now, I don't feel this repair as I just outlined would deter from the value or patina of the flintlock.

I'm kind of an antique myself with replacement knees, and I feel I'm just as desirable as I was before the knee replacements!!

[Dphariss]

Restoration is, unless the item in question is a real basket case or badly broken, generally a mistake. AND its needs to be done by someone with considerable expericence.
Its not like rebuilding the engine on a Model T Ford.

[smilingjack]

Restoration is, unless the item in question is a real basket case or badly broken, generally a mistake. AND its needs to be done by someone with considerable expericence.
Its not like rebuilding the engine on a Model T Ford.

Agreed.

Then possibly it is necessary then to determine was is a restoration, or a refurbishment.

[WESTbury]

I believe that the jaw screw is an old original screw but it does not have a HF profile. The cap appears to be old as well but not a HF cap.

Many of these old flint muskets have replacement jaw screws and caps. It is just something that occurred over its long 200+ year lifetime. I personally do not sweat it if the parts are in fact old and not modern repros.

These old muskets, even if in original flint condition, lose value if modern repro parts are present. They are not like antique longrifles which are unique pieces and collectors over look well done restorations. Just take the Albrecht rifle which has 50% restored components including the lock, sideplate and complete forend. The rifle is historically very important and very desirable due to its uniqueness and being the only known Albrecht signed rifle. Wish it were mine!   

[smilingjack]

Jack,

I forgot to ask if the HF style proof and viewing stamps as well as the serial number are still present on the breech end of the barrel? Also, are James Stubblefield's script initials and script "V" still on the stock flat, opposite the lock?

While doing another search for the serial number, I came across these stampings. Definitely found the "V".
Could you explain the meaning of the V, and the other letters.
thanks
Jack

[WESTbury]

Jack,

The letters stamped at the rear of the stock flat on HF muskets from 1808 to 1819 are the Viewing stamps of the finished musket inspector. The "V" obviously stands for "VIEWED". For this time period, the initials are either "MH" or "AT". See page 364 of Pete Schmidt's Vol 1 book. As far as I know, the owner of these initials have not been identified.