Author Topic: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)  (Read 2420 times)

Offline Rajin cajun

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Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« on: June 18, 2022, 04:54:45 PM »
Very important rifle will be displayed at the K.R.A. meeting next week . This is only the second signed rifle by this maker known . The first was found 116 years ago by Mr. Henry Berry and is in the Colonial Williamsburg collection. With the discovery of this rifle we now know who J. Montague was, where he worked, lived and died. Quiet a story, all details will be covered on this forum upon my return from K.R.A.









Bob
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 04:46:53 PM by Rajin cajun »
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Otto

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2022, 06:09:01 PM »
OK, I'm interested. Will wait on more

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2022, 07:59:19 PM »
Fixin' to build one of those soon.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2022, 08:26:45 PM »
Mon-tog?

Mon-tayg?

Mon-tuh-gue?

 ;D
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2022, 08:32:55 PM »
Mon-Taah-Hue or Monty Hew depending upon your dialect.
Back in my working days I took lunch out at the North Middletown Cemetery (nobody there minded), right next to where old James Montaghue was laid to rest, just a few feet away. I hadn’t a clue until I read Ragin Cajun’s research on the rifle. Thanks Bill!!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 08:57:08 PM by Stoner creek »
Stop Marxism in America

Offline spgordon

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2022, 09:14:22 PM »

Mon-tuh-gue?


This one, usually--unless there's some regional pronunciation in the area where this gunsmith was from.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline jdm

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2022, 01:11:48 AM »
Bob,   Good tease ! I'm looking foreword to your return and  " The Rest Of The Story ".   Jim
JIM

Offline Carl Young

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2022, 01:35:22 AM »
Bob. I eagerly await "the rest of the story" upon your return. Safe travels, and my best to the cajun crewe.
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline Molly

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2022, 01:36:54 AM »
Newly discovered?...I knew I had seen this one before some time ago.

https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_mont.html

Nothing like a VIRGINIA rifle!


Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2022, 03:55:41 AM »
Your correct Molly, I did acquire the rifle from Tim. That’s part of my follow up article in a couple of weeks. But the rifle didn’t come to light until 2018, that’s 116 years after the first one was purchased by Mr. Henry Berry . I think we can say it’s newly discovered.
Bob
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Molly

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2022, 04:56:04 AM »
These "objects" can circulate through the public domain for many years and still be new discoveries.  What make them "new" is to find details about them which were unknown and sometimes even to have an enthusiastic collector discover the object...(new to me), that alone qualifies as a discovery.

Look forward to seeing the rifle soon and hearing the story.

Regards,

MAS 

Offline JTR

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2022, 04:56:41 PM »
Your correct Molly, I did acquire the rifle from Tim. That’s part of my follow up article in a couple of weeks. But the rifle didn’t come to light until 2018, that’s 116 years after the first one was purchased by Mr. Henry Berry . I think we can say it’s newly discovered.
Bob

Now I wish I was going to the KRA this year! What a grand rifle!

Newly discovered, yes. Completely unknown, well no. Sort of like the Newly discovered signed Joel Ferree rifle posted here a couple months back. As far as I know that full name signed rifle is the only one known.

John
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Offline bama

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2022, 12:25:55 AM »
I get to ride to the KRA with Bob and his son in law Charlie, we are traveling from my house in Alabama up to the show together. We are picking up Brother Gerald Neaves on the way, it is going to be a great KRA. I will get to inspect this fine rifle up close and personal, what a treat.
Jim Parker

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Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague (INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2022, 04:01:42 AM »
 James Montague was born November, 1785 at Wethersfield, Connecticut. He was the second of five children of Seth and Sybil Montague. James moved from Connecticut to Staunton, Virginia in 1810. He was apprenticed to John Sheets upon his arrival in Staunton. He served in McDowell’s flying camp , Capt. Matthew’s company, Va. militia during the War of 1812.
  After his apprenticeship John Sheets the master and mentor became John Sheets the father in law. He married John Sheets daughter Catherine on June 11, 1816. They resided in Staunton, Va. about 20 years, then they moved to North Middletown, Kentucky in 1835. He is listed on census records as a Gunmaker and Tinsmith.
James and Catherine had 10 children together. James died on April 14, 1865 at North Middletown, Ky. His wife Catherine died on July 3, 1880 at North Middletown, Ky. This rifle was found in 2018, it is only the second known signed rifle by this maker. The first one found is in the Colonial Williamsburg collection. That rifle was found by Mr. Henry Berry, and later acquired by Mr. Madison Grant. Mr. Grant donated that rifle to Williamsburg in 1980. The rifle in the Williamsburg collection was built when Montague was in Staunton, Va. This rifle was built after Montague moved to North Middletown, Ky.
 The small detail on this rifle that puts its manufacture in not only Kentucky but into Bourbon, county, is the simple short S termination on the lower butt and forearm molding. The Montague rifle in the Williamsburg collection has the long wave termination on its molding as found on Virginia and Pennsylvania rifles. The noted author and collector Mel Hankla in his latest work,”Into the Bluegrass, Art and Artistry of Kentucky’s Historic Icons”, published in 2020. Mr. Hankla states,” This short S molding termination feature is unique to and only found on rifles that are from the Lexington School of gun making in Kentucky”.

 Montague being a tinsmith and a gunsmith may explain why he would move from Va. to Bourbon county, Ky. The 1810 census for Bourbon county indicate there were 128 registered distillers in Bourbon county alone. They produced over 140,000 gallons of Bourbon, valued at $48,000 . How many unregistered stills were there is anyone’s guess! Copper being the metal of choice for stills and all other items connected with the production of bourbon. A person with the ability to work it would be in high demand. Montague knew that tin smithing would be a very lucrative profession in Kentucky. This may explain why rifles by Montague are so scarce. With only two known signed rifles by J. Montague, this one being only the second one found in the last
116 years after the first one was found. The assumption has to be that there are not many of Montague rifles to be found.
The copper panels fore and aft of the lock were applied by an accomplished metal worker not to strengthen or stabilize a break in the stock, but to cover the void left by the shorter percussion lock at the time of conversion. They were put there solely for aesthetic reasons, the question is, are we also looking at Montague metal working skills ? I would like to believe we were!
 For all KRA members just a heads up there will be an article in one of the two next KRA newsletters on this rifle and Montague story. Some very interesting sidelites about him.

All photos of rifle used are with permission of Aspenshade Antiques and Mr. Tim and Mrs Helen Hodges.













                               James Montague Military record




MAP OF NORTH MIDDLETOWN, KY. 1861. SHOWING MONTAGUES SHOPS. GUNMAKER AND A FEW DOORS DOWN TIN SHOP.





NORTH MIDDLETOWN,KY. SOME OF THE BUILDINGS WHERE HIS SHOPS WERE REMAIN TODAY.




[/url




          GRAVESTONES OF JAMES AND CATHERINE MONTAGUE, NORTH MIDDLETOWN CEMETERY.






[url=https://ibb.co/FqGNYhw]



« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 08:03:29 PM by Rajin cajun »
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2022, 08:06:34 PM »
The research on James Montague is on going, any new info will be passed on to those interested.
Bob
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline jdm

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2022, 09:35:47 PM »
Bob, Thank you for posting this interesting information. It takes a lot of work to do this kind of research . The collecting fraternity will profit from this for years to come.  It doesn't hurt that this is also a very pleasing rifle. That repair is cooler than any inlay work on most rifles.   Jim
JIM

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2022, 10:53:08 PM »
 I was reading this backwards and when I saw the PB I thought upper valley of of Va. then above the reference that he moved from Va. it made sense, looks like the TG is a replacement, neat gun.

  Tim C.

Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2022, 11:12:22 PM »
I was reading this backwards and when I saw the PB I thought upper valley of of Va. then above the reference that he moved from Va. it made sense, looks like the TG is a replacement, neat gun.

  Tim C.
Tim, the TG is original to the rifle, it was moved slightly forward along with the triggers to allow the Trigger to engage the sear on the shorter caplock, this was done at time of conversion.
Bob



« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 12:12:13 AM by Rajin cajun »
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2022, 12:20:56 AM »
Interesting that they did a fancy job of making the new lock fit but left open an open mortice on the trigger guard. Thanks for posting. Interesting stuff.
Robert Wolfe
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Offline VP

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2022, 01:21:05 AM »
Great research, it's great when a full story is told.

VP

Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2022, 01:37:25 AM »
Interesting that they did a fancy job of making the new lock fit but left open an open mortice on the trigger guard. Thanks for posting. Interesting stuff.
Robert, its only the small space to the rear of the guard as shown in the photos. It not a void which would permit moisture or foreign objects to enter into the lock area . The voids that we’re left after the percussion lock installation would have allowed an easy access to the internals of the lock. So he closed that area with the copper panels. IMHO...!

Bob
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline JTR

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2022, 02:30:11 AM »
Bob, That's a good looking and interesting rifle, and thanks for posting it!
And interesting pictures and info to go along with the rifle.
 
I think I've only seen a couple other guns with copper on them, one being a S. Morrison with a copper inlay.

John
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Newly discovered J.Montague. (NEW INFORMATION AS PROMISED)
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2022, 01:17:30 AM »
I was reading this backwards and when I saw the PB I thought upper valley of of Va. then above the reference that he moved from Va. it made sense, looks like the TG is a replacement, neat gun.

  Tim C.
Tim, the TG is original to the rifle, it was moved slightly forward along with the triggers to allow the Trigger to engage the sear on the shorter caplock, this was done at time of conversion.
Bob




 That is interesting... TC