Author Topic: Because they don't make a 78.  (Read 1941 times)

Offline Frozen Run

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Because they don't make a 78.
« on: July 03, 2022, 09:16:35 PM »
I went down to the Log Cabin Shop yesterday, I love going down to the Cabin because you never know what you'll find, it's a house of wonders with new and different items coming in all the time.

So when I went down there the other day I saw a snaphaunce on the wall, asked to pick it up, and when I did I thought to myself "Yeah, I'm a snaphaunce man" and purchased it. It's a .77 caliber smoothbore built by The Rifle Shoppe, it is their English Snaphaunce Musket. Here are some pictures, the photos are wildly out of proportion to the gun as I was having a difficult time capturing all of its majesty on my cellphone. I have a newfound respect for the professional builders out there whom I used to critique for their poor photography skills. Turns out taking good pictures is difficult:



I had to stand on a folding chair and play around with the aspect ratio on my phone to get this shot. It is massive but balances surprisingly well, it has an octagon to round barrel making it not nose heavy and the really long barrel is balanced by the very wide and heavy buttstock. It's a lot less cumbersome than it looks, which makes you appreciate how well thought out the design was for the time. Granted it is nowhere near as handy as a later flintlock so it also allows you to appreciate the evolution of design better. I'm grateful for not falling off the chair.


       

This lock is massive, I couldn't even come close to photographing it to proportion, but to put it in perspective you could probably only fit 2 of them inside the palm of Stoner's hand at the same time!

I would really appreciate some additional recommendations and advice since I don't have any experience with this type of gun or the time period.

It's a .77 caliber so I think I need to start off with .750 and .760 commercially available balls, along with various patch thicknesses before considering having a custom mold made for me? 2F powder or do I need to go down to 1F, or should I try both? And what grain should I start off at and then what should be the outer limit to consider?

Should I use 10 gauge wads for shot? I think they are ideal for .775 bores?

Is a widewake hat and 12 apostles appropriate accouterments to go along this gun?

Thank you for your help.     

 


Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2022, 10:09:37 PM »
Congrats Don, that's a fine addition to your collection. I'm glad you brought it, makes me want to try my  hand at something like that.

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2022, 10:40:11 PM »
Thank you, I'm glad I bought it, this thing is off the charts on the cool scale! I'll let you take a tracing and use it as a study piece if you decide to build one. I considered getting a parts set before buying it, but I have my hands full with all of the classes I'm fortunate to take and didn't feel ready taking on an entirely new field of study. Plus I don't think the parts are readily available?   

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2022, 04:59:40 PM »
If you ever get tired of that gun let me know.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2022, 06:23:47 PM »
Thatís a fine looking  gun my friend.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2022, 07:11:00 PM »
If you ever get tired of that gun let me know.

I'm thankful that you commented on this, I thought I had something special in my hands when I first saw it but you just confirmed it. I'll give you first offer if I ever plan on letting it go, but I don't think I'll ever be selling it. It's too darn cool and rarer than hen's teeth I'd imagine. On top of all the shootin' and critter blastin', I don't think we have a snaphaunce at The Gun Shop so it'll be helpful catching peoples' interest at the rendezvous.

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2022, 07:16:24 PM »
Thank you, Bob, you have a great eye for appreciating beauty so you're compliment makes me feel even more fortunate to own it.

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2022, 09:18:19 PM »
If you ever get tired of that gun let me know.

I'm thankful that you commented on this, I thought I had something special in my hands when I first saw it but you just confirmed it. I'll give you first offer if I ever plan on letting it go, but I don't think I'll ever be selling it. It's too darn cool and rarer than hen's teeth I'd imagine. On top of all the shootin' and critter blastin', I don't think we have a snaphaunce at The Gun Shop so it'll be helpful catching peoples' interest at the rendezvous.

Don, I get 1st dibs (what am I, chopped liver?). Sorry Mike, I'm first.

Offline RAT

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2022, 02:57:02 AM »
Love the worm holes. I'm not much for artificial ageing, but if they are part of the wood that was used... it adds character.
Bob

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2022, 03:25:10 AM »
If you ever get tired of that gun let me know.

I'm thankful that you commented on this, I thought I had something special in my hands when I first saw it but you just confirmed it. I'll give you first offer if I ever plan on letting it go, but I don't think I'll ever be selling it. It's too darn cool and rarer than hen's teeth I'd imagine. On top of all the shootin' and critter blastin', I don't think we have a snaphaunce at The Gun Shop so it'll be helpful catching peoples' interest at the rendezvous.

Don, I get 1st dibs (what am I, chopped liver?). Sorry Mike, I'm first.
I think we should arm wrestle for it. ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline ScottNE

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2022, 06:17:47 AM »
I saw this on their website a couple or few days ago and was intrigued. I love the wood, and the worm holes add the perfect type of character, and the lock looks to be quite an interesting mechanism.

My brother has a similar musket (doglock, not snaphaunce but otherwise quite similar) and after handling that one I decided this piece would be too unwieldy for my tastes but now Iím jealous. Congrats on acquiring such an interesting piece!

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2022, 09:42:23 AM »
Bob, thank you, there are a lot of interesting little details throughout the gun. I will try and get some more pictures later on this week.

Mike, I can take a tracing and dimensions and hand them off to Stoner at his CLA party if you'd like?

Scott, thank you. The mechanism is fascinating. The LOP is about 1/2" or so longer than ideal for me, other than that it's not that unwieldly. It's not as ergonomic as a later gun, but it's not completely alien feeling either. Also, you don't really notice anything other than how cool you feel holding a freakin' snaphaunce. Incidentally enough, I was a bit on the fence regarding the LOP thing until I looked over at a mutual friend of John and mine and he about jumped out of his skin telling me to buy it. This was odd as I had never seen that sort of emotion from him, he's normally very composed and methodical. I'm incredibly happy that I purchased it.   

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2022, 01:05:30 AM »
If you ever get tired of that gun let me know.

I'm thankful that you commented on this, I thought I had something special in my hands when I first saw it but you just confirmed it. I'll give you first offer if I ever plan on letting it go, but I don't think I'll ever be selling it. It's too darn cool and rarer than hen's teeth I'd imagine. On top of all the shootin' and critter blastin', I don't think we have a snaphaunce at The Gun Shop so it'll be helpful catching peoples' interest at the rendezvous.

Don, I get 1st dibs (what am I, chopped liver?). Sorry Mike, I'm first.
I think we should arm wrestle for it. ;D


I'll need to practice on my 3 year old granddaughter, she's pretty tough! She can wrap her grandpa around her little finger with just a smile.

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2022, 07:43:03 AM »
Does this lock represent something of fine enough quality from the 16th century that would make some modest engraving appropriate? Would a fire breathing dragon be a correct lock motif for it? Does Mike Brooks still engrave fire breathing dragons on locks? Thank you. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2022, 10:32:19 PM »
FR:  regarding your question about how to load the gun, let me tell you of my experience with a .77 cal smoothbore.
I used to own a .77 cal Brown Bess Musquet (Long Land Pattern 1st5 model).  It had a 46" barrel and loaded easily and shot well with the following load:  .735 round ball from a Lyman mould, .022" denim patches soaked with lube, 86 gr. GOEX 2Fg.  My musket had a 3/8" wooden ramrod and loaded easily all day without cleaning.  Here's the skinny:  if your bore is .770" and you use a .735" pure lead ball, you will have .035" of windage around the naked ball.  So a patch around .020" will just fill the void and a little thicker will be better.  The thicker patch will carry sufficient lubricant to dissolve the fowling left from the previous shot...46" long and .77 cal is a lot of surface area in that bore.  10 gauge wads worked well in my gun for shot.  Have fun!  Neat gun!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2022, 03:23:44 AM »
Taylor, thank you for you help! I will give that a try and follow up.   

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2022, 03:16:24 AM »
Definitely cool ! How long is the barrel? I know you're having a challenge taking pics but heck, take some and throw em out here for us to see anyway!

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2022, 11:01:14 AM »
Bob, thank you, I am fortunate to own it. The barrel is 46" and the bore measures .774. Octagon to round, it has no choke so I'm not sure if cylinder bore is correct or just a smoothbore or if that's just all semantics for the same thing? I think I am going to start off with Taylor's recommendation of .735 balls with ≈.04 denim patches as well as .750 balls with .015 or .020 cotton pillow ticking. I think I'm also going to go with a modest starting load of 80 gr 2f and possibly work my way up to around 90. For shot I'm not entirely sure, I think I should experiment around the ounce and a half range? I purchased the 10 gauge wads Taylor recommended and will need to ask around some more regarding shot loads. Any help on that from anyone would be appreciated.

Here are the pictures of the lock, it was fun figuring out how it worked. The underside of the lock was very clean. There's an intermediary part between what most people would recognize as a tumbler and what most people would recognize as a sear, I'm not sure if it has a proper name for it or if it is considered part of the tumbler or part of the sear. For the sake of conversation I am referring to it as a linkage, someone please correct me where I am wrong. Also, while proofreading this, I had a revelation that the etymology of naming the part a sear likely came from the verb sear meaning to burn or scorch the surface of something? 

Here is the outside of the lock in its resting position. There is a pin hole above the trigger and lock mortise, this is the pivot pin for the trigger. The trigger is a pendulum and pulling back on it pulls the sear back (instead of up) to release the tumbler. Going from left to right, you first have the safety spring and beneath that the safety. The safety rotates 180 degrees, you can see a wedge on the bottom of the safety along with a small relief in the spring and a cutout in the lockplate underneath the spring. The sear pokes out a bit from that cutout and rotating the safety 180 degrees clockwise places the wedge of the safety behind the sear and interupts its ability to travel rearwards. To the right of that is the cock, towards the bottom of the cock you can see a little cutout with a wedge trying to poke through, that wedge is the linkage between the sear and the tumbler. Pulling back to full cock opens the cutout allowing the wedge on the forward part of the linkage to spring out over the tail of the cock, interrupting its ability to return, and holding it in battery until the trigger is pulled. Forward of the cock and beneath the pan, the part with the two screws is the bolster, that is what the belly of the cock strikes to halt it and prevent the jaws from overshooting the pan. On a later flintlock, the inner side of the cock has a shelf on it that strikes the bolster that surrounds the pan. The disk is just the end of the pan, it's probably domed like that to make it stronger and discourage rain? Forward of that is the frizzen, frizzen spring, and the linkage that connects the two and keeps them to the lockplate.     

   

Here is the inside of the lock in resting position. Above the pan is a pan cover that slides freely back and forth, the pan cover has a post that slides underneath the mainspring. The cock comes in through a square hole in the tumbler and a cross pin keeps it from sliding out. On the top of the tumbler is a pivot that holds a long narrow spring. The pan cover is held in place by the frizzen resting on it, pulling it to full cock causes the long spring attached to the tumbler to drop in behind the pan cover post and flush against the inside of the lock plate , releasing the tension on the tumbler causes that long narrow spring to impact the post of the pan cover and kick it out of the way exposing the pan a fraction of a second before the cock strikes the frizzen. You can also see a very large and beefy mainspring. Behind the tumbler is the sear, sear spring, linkage, and link spring.



Here is the lock in full cock. The mainspring applies tension to the tumbler, which is held in place by the linkage between the tumbler and sear. The forward part of the linkage is pushed to the outside of the lock plate via a spring since the cock is completely to the rear and no longer impeding it by obstructing the cutout in the lock plate. The forward part of the linkage has a wedge that holds the cock in full cock battery, it is held in place via the sear when they mate up in battery, and also likely opposing tension from the tumbler and cock. The sear also has leaf spring to keep things tidy. When the trigger is pulled it pushes the sear backward, remember the trigger is a pendulum that pivots above the lock mortise, and blamo!   



I haven't had a chance to watch this video yet, but it has all the hallmarks of something good so I'm posting it now so I don't forget about it later:


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2022, 10:03:41 PM »
You have done an admireable job describing the workings of your snaphaunce lock.  One must remember that the firearms lock that immediately predated this one was the wheellock, and many of the mechanical features of that lock have been employed in this one.  In particular, the horizontal sear, which is a two part system, is evident.  And the trigger, pivoting well above the lock plate, gives the trigger tremendous mechanical advantage, so that the release can be made extremely light.  I have thoroughly enjoyed learning about your musket, and I wish you joy it using it.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2022, 08:48:14 AM »
Thank you Taylor! I'm really happy I purchased it, it's interesting seeing the design evolution firsthand, just waiting on the jags to come in and it's off to the range. The long bar behind the tumbler, the part I originally was calling a linkage before learning from you it is the second part of a two part sear, I know its relationship to the tumbler is through the cock which it holds in battery. But I thought it had a more immediate relationship with the tumbler as well, that is why I was referring to it as a linkage. But in hindsight I think that was just my brain filling in a detail with something I am more familiar with. I don't think they mate up at all outside of some basic file work so that they don't interfere with each other? I had caught the error in proofreading but didn't feel like making the correction at the time, I was tired and didn't feel like taking the lock out again that night and I was also worried about things getting too convoluted as they were. I need to investigate it again and follow up.   

Offline DHouse

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2022, 07:39:31 PM »
Thank you for sharing and congrats on the new addition. Really neat piece!

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2022, 05:26:43 AM »
Thank you, I'm very happy with it!

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2022, 04:08:52 PM »
Thank you for showing this great piece Frozen!
I love a bit different, and this one is!
Always wanted to make one of these locks, but never got at it!

Best,
Richard.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2022, 07:18:19 PM »
That one makes me appreciate what came later====MUCH later.
Bob Roller

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Because they don't make a 78.
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2022, 08:03:06 PM »
Thank you, Richard, the curiosity of it was one of the things that attracted me to it. Lock, stock, and barrel there is not a single part of this gun where the coolness factor is not cranked all the way up to 11. If you ever need a close up picture of any particular part of the lock to help with a build then let me know.

Bob, I was wondering something similar and I'm glad you commented. What makes this lock more challenging to build than a later one?