Early PA long rifle by Baker

[smart dog]

Hi,
My brother and I visited Edward Hand's Rock Ford plantation after attending the Kempton Gun Makers Fair.  Hand commanded rifle units during the Rev War and was just as important a leader as Dan Morgan.  They are showcasing a long rifle exhibit that will run until October.  It is well worth the visit and includes many of the earliest long rifles of which we know.  The Edward Marshall, Tileston, RCA 52, a Newcomer, early Beck, early Dickert and quite a few others are there.  In addition, the famous Turvey rifle in RCA 1 is there.  Included is a short Germanic style rifle attributed to one of the Bakers purported to be the earliest gunsmiths in the Lancaster area.  The rifle looks a lot like a German gun and is thought to date from the 1730s.  The barrel is huge.  Do any of you have more information on this gun?

dave   

[rich pierce]

Eagerly hoping for pictures or other information!

[smart dog]

Hi Rich,
I could not take any photos in the museum.  They would not have been very good anyway although the glass cases allow you to see both sides.

dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

That's the thing about attributing with no signature and no signed surviving pieces upon which to base the attribution:  lots of creative leeway!  And lots of fun.

Sorry, had to be a wisenheimer.

Sincerely, JOHN GEORGE RUPP 

[smart dog]

Hi Eric,
I agree.  I am hoping someone can tell me more about this gun.  The curator of the show is John Kolar.

dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes I'm well aware. 

[WESTbury]

  Included is a short Germanic style rifle attributed to one of the Bakers purported to be the earliest gunsmiths in the Lancaster area.  The rifle looks a lot like a German gun and is thought to date from the 1730s.  The barrel is huge.  Do any of you have more information on this gun?
dave   

I've checked in my meager library of books featuring "Lancaster" rifles and have been unable to find a photo of any early rifles by an early Baker gunsmith. There must be at least one or two rifles represented in some publication.

[smart dog]

Hi Kent,
I have never seen any gun attributed or signed by any Baker from early Lancaster but my knowledge is limited.  Maybe there is or are guns discussed among collectors but I am not aware of them.  I have references listing the Bakers in early Lancaster but no photos of guns.  The show will produce a book so more folks may get to see this rifle.

dave

[WESTbury]

The show will produce a book so more folks may get to see this rifle.
dave

Dave ,

Thanks for your comments. I"ll be looking for that book. The June issue of MAA Magazine contained a two page ad for the exhibit. Unfortunately, no photo of the rifle your saw. I understand that they have a New England rifle on display as well. Not quite sure how that fits into the theme of the exhibit.

Kent

[44-henry]

I have done some work with out there and saw many of their rifes before they were put on display. Most of what I saw came out of the Henry Kauffman collection. Kauffman was once a professor in my department at Millersville and a prolific author, he had quite a collection at one time. More of his collection can be seen at the earby Landisville Museum. Here is a link to another thread about Kauffman.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3832.0

[Eric Kettenburg]

I believe there is a Peter Berry rifle as well......................

[smart dog]

Hi Eric,
Yes, a very nice Berry.

dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

War-era I'm sure. 

[WESTbury]

I have done some work with out there and saw many of their rifes before they were put on display. Most of what I saw came out of the Henry Kauffman collection.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3832.0

Is there a publication with the Kauffman Collection in it? I have his PA. Kentucky Rifle book which is a little sparse but full of great information. Our friend Bob Lienemann tells me that the book contains info that has not been repeated in any other book published since 1960.

[spgordon]

... the book contains info that has not been repeated in any other book published since 1960.

I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean that there is good information in Kauffman's book that deserves to be better known (but hasn't been repeated)? I wonder what an example of this would be.

[WESTbury]

... the book contains info that has not been repeated in any other book published since 1960.

I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean that there is good information in Kauffman's book that deserves to be better known (but hasn't been repeated)? I wonder what an example of this would be.

I wish I knew myself. Perhaps Bob can enlighten us. He is usually very precise. I bought the book last Spring during a Road Trip at a thrift shop for $8.00 and have not fully explored it.

Wanted to add that they had the book in the Travel Section under Pennsylvania.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Eric, the Berry is definitely post war but it is still one of his best.

Kent, they identify the iron mounted Tileston rifle as New England made and dated 1773.  The iron hardware on that gun just has to be seen.  It was made extremely well.  The maker and date are stamped on the barrel and the stock appears to be cherry.  If I recall, some folks suggest the gun was southern made but there is definitely a Thomas Tileston, gunsmith, documented from Mass.

dave   

[James Rogers]

In addition, the famous Turvey rifle in RCA 1 is there. 
dave   

That's one i would love to see!

[WESTbury]

Hi,
Eric, the Berry is definitely post war but it is still one of his best.
Kent, they identify the iron mounted Tileston rifle as New England made and dated 1773.  The iron hardware on that gun just has to be seen.  It was made extremely well.  The maker and date are stamped on the barrel and the stock appears to be cherry.  If I recall, some folks suggest the gun was southern made but there is definitely a Thomas Tileston, gunsmith, documented from Mass.
dave

Thanks for the info Dave. Would love to see it. Is the rifle published anywhere?

As far as I know (which might not be far enough as usual) what most collectors consider the Classic New England Rifles, were not produced until late in the 18th Century.

I do know that Don Andreasen referred to the "Tileston" rifle on pg13 of his 1982 article, Observations on the New England Flintlock Rifle in MAA Magazine. Andreasen states that, "research indicates" that Tileston may have been the owner and that John Holbrok made the rifle. Without photos of the rifle, it is difficult to form an opinion. Can you give some particulars if you took a look at it? 

Perhaps Joe Puleo may weigh in here. He is very knowledgeable about firearms made in New England.

In any case, a New England Rifle is still out of place in a PA. Rifle display, in my opinion.

Kent

[smart dog]

Hi James,
I was thinking of you when looking at the Turvey.  I really needed to see that gun in the flesh because the photos in RCA 1 do not convey the size of it at all.  It is a big gun.  My first thought when seeing it was the Edward Marshall rifle.  It is almost that massive through the lock and wrist.  It is not at all dainty like a fowler.  I was very gratified to see that my recent English rifle got the dimensions and shaping right.

dave 

[WESTbury]

 This article is posted on the Rock Ford website. It is from the March April 2022 issue of Early American Life.

The National Museum of the U.S. Army has the Tileston marked rifle and can be seen on their website under "Founding the Nation"

https://historicrockford.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2204_long_rifles_sm.pdf

https://www.thenmusa.org/exhibit/founding-the-nation/

https://www.thenmusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Founding-the-Nation-Highlights-PAO.pdf

https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1981-B44-Worcester-County-Gunsmiths-1760-1830.pdf

[spgordon]

I am going to Rockford later this month and look forward to seeing all these arms.

I have already seen quite a few of the information plaques/panels, since friends or other visitors to the exhibit have posted them on Facebook.

I'm sure this phenomenon will have struck others besides me: the persons who own these objects are the same persons who are writing these informational plaques (sometimes factually incorrect, often full of what Eric calls "creative leeway") and providing information for the writers of these articles, which will in turn be cited as published evidence of certain "facts" when the same persons sell the rifles at a later date.

[smart dog]

Hi Kent,
The intention of the display is to show early rifles in America in addition to those with some Rev War provenance.  So it was not just PA rifles.  They had one of Ernie Cowan's Ferguson replicas there as well to display an early breech loader used in the war.  Unfortunately, despite all the hype about strict historical accuracy Cowan and Keller included in their write up about the Ferguson included in Bailey's book on British military rifles, they screwed up the color and finish on their gun.  I don't know why it is that so many guys insist, despite evidence to the contrary on every British gun at least, that every military gun made in the 18th and 19th centuries had stocks colored really dark and looking like they were dipped in linseed oil and left to dry dull with an "in the wood" oil finish.  British military guns, including the Ferguson and I handled the original in Morristown, were finished with a slightly glossy linseed oil VARNISH and many, if not most, are not almost black in color now nor when they were made. 

dave

[WESTbury]

Hi Kent,
The intention of the display is to show early rifles in America in addition to those with some Rev War provenance.  So it was not just PA rifles. 
dave

Dave,
Thanks for the clarification. I was just going by Rock Ford's exhibition title which specifically limits the exhibition to Lancaster gunsmiths.
Kent

[smart dog]

Hi,
Another observation.  One of my all time favorite guns is RCA 52.  I built a version of it but got the stock dimensions wrong (too skinny), so I remade it into my "North Bucks Lehampton Valley Spring" rifle.    Anyway, none of the published photos of that gun do it justice.  It is a beautiful gun and the carving is much more sophisticated and well executed than is revealed by the photos. You cannot appreciate that rifle until you see it first hand.

dave