Author Topic: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?  (Read 1738 times)

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Now my experience with BP cartridge arms, and the writings of Frank Da Haas, tells me that a ‘set’ trigger - while LIGHT - is actually slower in lock time, due to the 2nd lever.

Curious if anyone has done any testing or has thoughts as to which would be more accurate for 100-yard strictly offhand muzzleloader shooting? Please don’t just tell me your choice , but most important … what are your REASONS behind your thoughts? Thank you!

For example, I just shot in the recent NE Flintlock Championship Shoot (July) using a single trigger longrifle. My holds were pretty good and I shot a 1st place score at 100-yards. But I’m thinking that perhaps a ‘set’ trigger would allow me to tweak or achieve just a little bit more accuracy by touching off the trigger when I know that I am ‘ON’ the bullseye.
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2022, 02:43:09 AM »
If you have a set trigger with a fast rear trigger driven by a good spring it might help. A single trigger under the sear
can be used with a tuned and smooth lock.The first thing I'd look at is the fit of the sear screw thru the hole in the sear.
A REAMED hole with a screw that fits to ,0005 (1/2 of 1000th)of an inch and a limber strong mainspring will go a very
long way to helping accuracy.A slick working "fly" is a must and its camming surface should be hard as glass and polished
mirror bright.
Bob Roller

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2022, 02:58:41 AM »
Excellent things to consider, thank you! Those I can do!
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2022, 03:25:25 AM »
Excellent things to consider, thank you! Those I can do!
An additional thing(s) can be check sear spring tension and polish the TOP of the sear to look like the fly
I mentioned and the TIP of the sear spring to the same degree IF possible, A lock with the mainspring
that bears directly on the tumbler can be helped with the high polish treatment as well.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 03:19:00 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2022, 04:13:51 AM »
Many thanks!
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Otto

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2022, 05:37:27 PM »
Gosh, this is an interesting question and I thought it would have generated a great deal more discussion. I certainly don't have the answer, But I'll wade in and say that I think once the sear is tripped past its contact edge on the tumbler then its all about the lock. But the question in my mind seems to be; is the "jolt" of the spring driven DST bar a factor? I think a lot of us can relate to the joy of using a really crisp single trigger that "breaks" in a nice clean feel.
 If the "lag time" that is; the time from when you decide your sight picture is good to when your finger moves enough to break is the same then is there really an advantage to a spring driven lever? If the DST is faster then is additional mechanical movement an advantage or a detriment? But I suppose a DST can be "set" to a lighter release than a single trigger, but if you push that too far you have to deal with a finger position that can't register on the trigger itself which I would find intolerable. I guess the answer would have to come from a serious timing investigation sort of like Larry Pletcher's lock work. I don't think our brains can really tell.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2022, 06:28:17 PM »
I have no way to time test which is faster but I have observed many National Champion shooters in the act and I do see a lot of DST in use.  :-\

Offline Daryl

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2022, 07:47:52 PM »
Whether flint or caplock, I have always shot better with set triggers when shooting offhand.
From the bench, my best shooting @100meters has been with a simple trigger, but I've made as small 50
yard groups with double set, double throw triggers vs with the simple triggered rifles.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2022, 05:26:05 AM »
I have no way to time test which is faster but I have observed many National Champion shooters in the act and I do see a lot of DST in use.  :-\
I did get one PM from someone who said that they see more DST triggers on the line at Friendship for any of the accuracy shoots, e.g., bench/chunk or offhand, than not.
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2022, 05:27:42 AM »
Gosh, this is an interesting question and I thought it would have generated a great deal more discussion.
Me too!
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2022, 06:15:17 PM »
Rabbit Holes.

Okay folks, here's my input after folks are running deeply down rabbit holes.

Single versus set triggers are mainly down to personal preference, with some advantages to each. 

Let's back up to 50,000 feet and be realistic.  What is the biggest influence on accuracy?   The monkey on the crank.  The shooter.  Unless you are shooting your gun clamped in some machine rest, the shooter normally has the biggest influence on accuracy, especially offhand. 

Mechanical accuracy is how the gun shoots clamped in a bench vise of some sort. PRACTICAL accuracy is how "shootable" the gun is when combined with the shooter.

If you clamp a pistol in a machine rest, and it shoots a 1/2" group at 50 yards, that is great mechanical accuracy.  Let's say that same pistol has a 12-pound trigger.  Offhand, even an Olympic grade shooter would be challenged to hit the target offhand.  So, this would demonstrate poor practical accuracy.  Same gun.  Why am I referring to pistols?  Because they are harder to shoot accurately than a rifle for the same shooter. Same applies to rifles though. 

Practical accuracy is how the gun works with the shooter to get a shot on target.  Breaking the trigger without moving the sights off target.  I personally believe that a set trigger allows for more practical accuracy for the normal shooter.  It helps minimize or eliminate the possibility of a shooter "yanking" a trigger, and pulling the gun off target.  I personally despise a heavy trigger.  A gun with a heavy trigger either doesn't get shot or goes back for work to reduce the pull weight and improve the break. 

Yes, I have shot a ton of single triggers in my life on all sorts of guns.  Some were excellent, some were appalling.  I still can shoot a set trigger better.  Especially offhand.  For me, a set trigger minimizes the time between when I initiate my trigger press and when the gun completes a surprise break.  Little to no creep as well. 

When discussing the set trigger "jarring" the gun before ignition, I think "really??"  With that huge cock whacking a frizzen someone thinks the "jarring" of a set trigger makes any practical difference?     

My belief is that the practical benefits to a shooter of a set trigger minimizing yanking-off-target far outweigh the small theoretical advantages of single triggers.  Unless you are talking hunting, especially in cold weather. 

Think back to the long range matches at Creed's Moor on Long Island in the 19th century.  They put a weight limit on guns (to separate the men from boys on recoil), and they specified single triggers (to separate the men from boys on trigger break).  They must have felt set triggers were an advantage? 

For hunting in cold weather?  I can see a good single trigger could be a smart choice.  A double lever set trigger can also work in that climate.....just don't set the rear trigger.  Run it as a single trigger.  I personally am a bit nervous about Appalachian set triggers where the trigger has to be set before the lock can be cocked.  Especially for hunting.

One big negative for me is that many makers (past and present) don't know how to install a single trigger and set up a lock with a light pull.  There are many out there with heavy, balky triggers, and that isn't so easy to correct as with modern firearms.  There are makers who understand triggers and make great trigger pulls, I will readily admit.

Since my guns get shot versus hanging on a wall, I tend to have established opinions about barrels, locks, and triggers.  Please forgive me if I have offended anyone.  That was not my intent. 

Just keep in mind theoretical and mechanical accuracy versus practical accuracy. 

Enough of my thoughts for now. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2022, 06:36:51 PM »
Additionally, proper respect to Daryl who can clearly run a single trigger as well as a DST. 

Offline AZshot

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2022, 06:58:29 PM »
LONG rabbit holes notwithstanding, all my best shooting on targets were with rifles is with very light triggers.  Any way you can get a light trigger; single set, double set, or a good unset trigger. I suspect the reason most long rifles had double set triggers is because side locks are difficult to make a perfect single trigger.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2022, 07:18:16 PM by AZshot »

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2022, 08:59:06 PM »
I personally believe that a set trigger allows for more practical accuracy for the normal shooter.  It helps minimize or eliminate the possibility of a shooter "yanking" a trigger, and pulling the gun off target.

Especially offhand.  For me, a set trigger minimizes the time between when I initiate my trigger press and when the gun completes a surprise break.

Thanks, that to me is an advantage! I believe any alleged slower locktime, likely in milliseconds, is inconsequential when shooting a flintlock, especially offhand.

I also think if someone feels that the ‘trip’ of a set trigger pushes you off target … you should take up golf, LOL!
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2022, 09:09:33 PM »
I have good friends that do great work with single triggers.  I just think of set triggers as an "unfair advantage" I use whenever possible.    ;D

Online Scota4570

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2022, 08:59:26 PM »
My biggest leap in accuracy was truly eliminating all traces of flinch.  Once you learn to follow through like a bronze statue you are 90% there to shooting really well. You will never cheat a flinch with lock time on a ML. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2022, 09:50:12 PM »
I shoot DST rifles and pistols betterer than those with simple triggers.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Strictly targets - Good ‘single’ trigger or ‘set’ trigger?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2022, 11:47:34 PM »
LONG rabbit holes notwithstanding, all my best shooting on targets were with rifles is with very light triggers.  Any way you can get a light trigger; single set, double set, or a good unset trigger. I suspect the reason most long rifles had double set triggers is because side locks are difficult to make a perfect single trigger.

THAT depends on the lock.The locks on most old rifles commonly used were not quality work and only functional
and nothing more.I mentioned the lock on my Whitworth which looked like a Swiss watch inside and the sear on an axle
and a precise,shallow full cock plus a very fast,linked spring that gave it a very hard and fast hammer fall.No set trigger
was needed.On any side lock gun,no matter how it's loaded,the trigger pull is mostly determined by the quality of the lock
if a single trigger is used.On these  types of rifles the maker knew where to position the trigger bar in relation to  the arm of  the
sear and it may have a feather spring to keep it in constant engagement as the lock was being cocked.
Bob Roller