.58. Caliber

[Cobrad]

Hello friends, first post here. I’m looking at building a Kit Carson Hawken replica with the original 31” barrel. I’ve been planning a .54 cal but as this will be an elk rifle I’m looking at maybe a .58 instead. I hunt a good bit with a .454 Casull pushing 300 grain bullets at about 1700 fps. Sighted in at 100 yards I’m holding about 3” over a marmots back at 150 yards. Beyond that the bullets are falling out of the sky and require about 24” hold over at 200. I’m thinking a 58 cal round ball should have similar trajectory. What’s your real world experience?

[Daniel Coats]

Forget about modern ballistics.

.54 shoots flatter than a .58 and you don't need the extra power and a slightly larger hole to bleed out an elk. My favorite.54 load is only 80 grains but I killed a moose with it at 100 yards with one shot. Why so little powder? Because I could shoot the back end out of a coffee cup with that load that's why.

Use cheap paper plates for targets and practice all the way out to 100 yards maybe a touch further as long as you can reliably hit the paper plate.

[alacran]

The only way a .54 shoots flatter than a .58 is if you are using the same powder charge.

[bob in the woods]

The only way a .54 shoots flatter than a .58 is if you are using the same powder charge.

Exactly !   

[smylee grouch]

Yes, the 58 will do every thing a 54 will do and then some if loaded right and a 62 will do every thing a 58 will do and then some if loaded right. 

[MuskratMike]

I will take the 54 over the 58 and I have had and hunted with both. 54 will take anything on the North American continent (well slightly light for grizz). Better trajectory, less powder, less recoil, easier to get components.

[Daryl]

Yes, the 58 will do every thing a 54 will do and then some if loaded right and a 62 will do every thing a 58 will do and then some if loaded right. 

EXACTLY! Power increases with size & appropriate powder charges.

[bigsmoke]

Years ago, a fellow by the name of John Taylor hunted extensively on the African continent.  It is said that he killed thousands of critters, from big to small during his life.  Imagine that, if you will.  I would say he knew of what he talked.  He developed a formula for measuring the anticipated knock down power of a bullet.  It doesn't matter whether it is a smokeless cartridge or a black powder round ball.

Here it is:


Formula
The Taylor KO factor multiplies bullet weight (measured in grains) by muzzle velocity (measured in feet per second) by bullet diameter (measured in inches) and then divides the product by 7,000, converting the value from grains to pounds and giving a numerical value from 0 to ~150 for normal hunting cartridges. Expressed as a fraction, the Taylor KO Factor is:

Taylor Knock Out Formula  Weight x velocity x diameter all divided by 7000

So, a .54 with a moderate powder charge would come out like this:
weight 230 grains times 1,400 fps times .530 = 170,660 divided by 7,000 = 24.38

a .58 caliber with a moderate powder charge would come out like this:
Weight 255 grains times 1,400 fps times .570 = 203,490 divided by 7,000 = 29.07

Obviously, the .58 would hit the critter harder.  Which is why I would prefer the .62 caliber.

When one gets into the bigger bore rifles, the results become really impressive, both on paper and in the real world.

John (Bigsmoke)

[smylee grouch]

Agree with you big smoke except all the 570s I cast weigh 275+ grains. 

[bob in the woods]

My deer and sometimes black bear rifle is a ,54   My moose rifle and sometimes black bear rifle is a .62  My most used hunting gun for anything is my 10 bore New England fowling gun. Nothing has ever walked off after receiving it's .735 ball with 140 gr FFg behind it.  With the above charge, the trajectory at 100 yards is pretty darn close to my .54 rifle which I usually charge with 80 to 100 gr ..depending.

[Ezra]

I killed a Muley buck with my .58 a couple years ago.  One shot, 125 yards, killed him REAL dead.  Either caliber will work, just put the ball where your supposed to.  The elk won’t know no different.

Ez

[bigsmoke]

Agree with you big smoke except all the 570s I cast weigh 275+ grains. 

Whoops!!!
Thanks for the correction.  I had no .570's on hand to check, just took a guess.

[smylee grouch]

No problem, and thank you for John Taylor's   formula. I had forgot what it was.   

[Cobrad]

Thanks for your replies, I appreciate it. Let me ask a different question; what bullet speeds are you all getting with your .54’s and .58’s?

[Ezra]

Thanks for your replies, I appreciate it. Let me ask a different question; what bullet speeds are you all getting with your .54’s and .58’s?

Speed?  Absolutely no idea, I just dump 100 grains of 3fff down bore, load a spit patch of ticking (no idea of thickness) and ram it home.  I do know how high to aim to hit a deer/elk at 75-125 yards though.  Works for me, but I’m simple.

Ez

[bigsmoke]

Best way to find out is to chronograph the guns.
Second best way is to get a hold of a Lyman Black Powder book and look it up.  They have a pretty complete set of tables for that.  Good stories in there as well.
John (Bigsmoke)

[Daniel Coats]

Velocity is irrelevant in a .54 once you get up to around 80 grains or so. What matters is an accurate load and the hunting distance you've calculated using the paper plate rangefinder. Keep it simple you aren't trying to break the shoulder of a charging grizzly you're just double lunging a ruminant  at relatively close range.

Shot placement matters too, keep it low and visualize that the body cavity will have to fill up with blood to where the hole is before it starts squirting out leaving a good blood trail.

Another thought about shot placement on these hay burners were talking about hunting here. As such hay burners have huge stomachs and if you aim for the middle of an elk you're most likely going to hit it in the stomach resulting in a gut shot. Most missed shots are caused by shooting too high and missing the entire elk. Aim low just behind the shoulder and if you're lucky you'll get the heart and both lungs in which case they don't go far.

[Bob Roller]

Both the 54 and 58 uses a ball that's the same weight as a good modern handgun bullet.NO big game rifles of the post Civil War era that were used to decimate the bison herds used a ball of any kind but did use black powder.A 54 or 58 hollow base bullet would be my choice
in calibers bigger than 50.Has anyone ever chronographed a ball at 100 yards to see how much velocity they lose? Most old long rifles were not large caliber and were adequate for deer but I would never use one to hunt a critter that consider me as a menu item or might step on me like a bug.
Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

I have shot one of my 58s over a chronograph and got up to 1900 using Swiss 2f. My most accurate loades in that gun were with around 1700 + or - fps.

[MuskratMike]

My .54 shoots a .530 (224 grain) round ball I use a .018 ticking patch greased with a combination of 50% T.O.T.W. mink and 50% pure neatsfoot oil. 75 grains of Goex 3F I obtain 1685 F.P.S. If I do my job and place the ball where it should be at a distance I should be shooting at it's "game over".
Daniel Coats response was not only thoughtful but hit the nail on the head.
A proper rifle, proper load, and hours spent shooting that rifle at paper plate size target, knowing your games vitals and most important knowing your limitations. Not everyone can or should be shooting at game at 100 yards. 1 shot 1 kill and done quickly and humanly should be everyone's goal.

[Jeff Murray]

According to Lyman, using a barrel of 32 inches and GOEX powder charges ranging from 100 grains to 140 grains of 2F in 10 grain increments, muzzle energy averaged 1136 over the five charge spread.  Energy at 100 yards averged 498.8 over the five charges, a 54% reduction in energy.  Both the 58 and the 54 caliber round ball will lose approximately 40% of their velocity at 100 yards.  Velocity is obviously a critical component of energy.  I have records for my 58 out to 100 yards but am fighting with the Microsoft cloud curse to find them

[Bob Roller]

I have shot one of my 58s over a chronograph and got up to 1900 using Swiss 2f. My most accurate loades in that gun were with around 1700 + or - fps.

Smiley,THAT is about the velocity of the old 577 Cordite loads of days now gone.I have noticed a difference in the Swiss 3fg in a long range rifle I made for a local man years ago,It was a 451 and we had 485 grain grease grooved bullets from Lyman 451112,now long discontinued.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Some time back, I posted a list of loads shot in my Bil Large barrel's Hawken Taylor built me back in the 70's.
For most of the powder charges, I posted both spit patched and bear grease patched, both lubes using the
same .022" denim patching.
The bear grease always gave higher speeds, and at 140gr. of 2F GOEX of the day, produced 1,683fps with spit and
1,736fps with a bear greased patch.
90gr. of powder was chrono'd with spit patch only and produced 1,424fps and horrible accuracy, barely staying on a
9" pie plate off the bench at 100yards.
With 140gr. and either spit of bear grease, 5-shot groups from 1 1/2" to 2 were the norm. Back then, I didn't shoot
any closer than 100yards, except to see how I needed to hold to shoot grouse at 20-25yds. For those, bury the blade
in the bottom of the V, & hold spot-on.

[MartyB]

How far or close do you need to set your chrono with a black powder rifle.

Will the smoke muck up your readings?

[smylee grouch]

Its been a few years since I used my crono but IIRC it was a measured 15 or 16 feet from muzzle to the first screen. I don't recall any problems other that blowing the sky screens off the rods from the blast I assume. This would happen 2 or 3 times a day so I used some electrical tape to help hold them on.