DST Pivot point ?

[Steeltrap]

I'm posting the pic below of my Hawken DST trigger(s).  These the straight front trigger by L&R.

Now, as I've read in my gun building books, to have a lower weight single trigger pull, the pivot point should be at least .250" away from the sear bar. Placement of the pivot point above the sear bar is even better....but not really an option here. Right now my measurements indicate the sear bar is .700" away from the pivot point of the trigger.

I'm looking at this and thinking the only way (well...in my mind anyway) to move the pivot point closer would be to drill a pin in the stock (through the stock)...and drill a hole in the trigger (the front trigger....not the set trigger) so that the "new" pivot point would be high up on the "flat part" of the front trigger, thus allowing for a better single trigger pull weight (the current single trigger weight is just over 10-lbs) while still allowing clearance for the DST to work....if I choose to use that. (Frankly, if I get the single pull down to a reasonable number I doubt I'll ever use the DST)

So, can you knowledgable fellows shoot holes (pun intended) into my thinking?

[rich pierce]

This would change the way the front trigger pivots and thus the way the front and rear trigger interact and “set”.

Second, somebody is going to break something trying to get the trigger out someday.

[Steeltrap]

The "break someday" by someone else will be after I'm long gone. They can call me, but I doubt I'll pick up.   

But the interaction of the set trigger to the front trigger is what I'm fuzzy about and why I posted this question to begin with. I suppose I could just eliminate the set part ....as long as the single trigger would give me a 5-lb or a bit less pull weight.

[Jim Kibler]

No, for the set trigger to actually function, the pivot needs to stay where it is.  This is the sacrifice made with a set trigger.  With this the case, you have to work with what you have.  The .700 sear contact from the pivot is a little high and the trigger may have been able to be moved back a touch to lower the front trigger pull weight.

Also, you probably need to focus on the lock.  Most commercial locks are pretty bad in terms of pull weight on the sear to set them off.

I did some testing on our SMR and Ketland locks with set triggers and if I remember correctly, typical front trigger pull was around 3-4 pounds unset.  Now, if this was set-up with a well designed simple trigger, the pull would likely be around 2 lbs.

Jim

[Steeltrap]

Thanks Gent's. The lock is not a good one....it's a T\C coil spring factory. The plus about this lock is it fires every time (with a good flint of course).

I'll look to polish up contact points and see what kind of weight reduction I can get. I don't mind a 5-lb pull in the winter months of flintlock hunting....but a 10-lb is far too heavy.

I'll give some consideration to removing the DST and pinning the trigger closer as well.....but I'll think on that one for awhile.

[Steeltrap]

Well, again I thank you Gent's who were kind enough to share your knowledge with the likes of a rank amateur (armature?) such as me.

The T\C lock that is now on the rifle works just fine for my purposes. Every time I pull the trigger it sparks and makes the rifle go bang!  If I were shooting this in "weekend competition" shoots my current lock would never be suitable for that. But for hunting in the cold, it works great.

So, I took the lock apart in order to polish up contact points. Not just the sear, but any points that have round contact points as well. I will say that to remove any coils from the lock spring would likely be a mistake. That spring is ground from the factory to the exact length it's needed so that when the lock is "at rest" the spring won't fall out of position. Any additional reduction in length and your either looking for a new spring....or attempting to stretch the one you just cut to short.

So, after polishing all contact points and "bushing" points, I've managed to reduce the single trigger pull to 7-lbs. That's a 3-lb reduction and almost where I would prefer it.....but it's the same pull weight as a 45-70 Marlin Lever that I use when it's cold outside!!  I like the Lever action at that weight as I don't wanna send the 405gr to a place where I fully intended it to go!!

And the set trigger pull will be great for "range" testing from a fixed position to rule out the human "flinch" factor.

Thanks!

[FALout]

You could make up a trigger plate that fills in the gap from the DST and install a single trigger that would get the pull weight where you want it, you stated that you didn’t like/need a DST.  It’s an easy fix.

[Steeltrap]

You could make up a trigger plate that fills in the gap from the DST and install a single trigger that would get the pull weight where you want it, you stated that you didn’t like/need a DST.  It’s an easy fix.

Yes. I could silver solder (and frankly...I dunno if I would need a "hard" solder or "soft" solder to do this...but I'm leaning towards hard) a boss to the top of my existing trigger plate and simply move the pivot point higher, and then eliminate the set trigger and the springs that go along with that.

I'm certain the pull would get to the 3-4lb range...and that's a good range.

I've considered a replacement lock, but as I stated, this flintlock is absolutely fine for it's intended purpose. (Hunting). It began life as a T\C Hawken kit gun, then replaced the barrel with a GM, then refinished the stock (reshaped plus inlet the T\C brass, added a toe plate, swapped the trigger plate\triggers with L&R Hawken TP along with a much better TG. (Hawken Plains)

So the rifle is pretty much a "mutt".....but very adequate for it's purpose. I don't wanna spend another $200+ just to have a lock that I can say "It's a great lock" when the existing one works just fine.

I may do this as a winter project....in between tying flies for the spring!! 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Steeltrap:  the Hawken double set trigger functions perfectly as designed, for the purpose for which it was designed.  This trigger was never, in my opinion, designed to fire the rifle using only the front trigger...the triggers are designed to function by setting the triggers first, then a very light touch of the front trigger fires the lock.  The front trigger can be used to lower the cock to rest and I believe, that is it's purpose.  The triggers' design is not conducive to firing the lock with just the front trigger, in any situation - target or hunting.

[Steeltrap]

Steeltrap:  the Hawken double set trigger functions perfectly as designed, for the purpose for which it was designed.  This trigger was never, in my opinion, designed to fire the rifle using only the front trigger...the triggers are designed to function by setting the triggers first, then a very light touch of the front trigger fires the lock.  The front trigger can be used to lower the cock to rest and I believe, that is it's purpose.  The triggers' design is not conducive to firing the lock with just the front trigger, in any situation - target or hunting.

That could be....and if so then my preference is a single trigger with the pivot point placed so, with a good lock, the pull will be 2-4lbs.

Short of the rifle being used for target\match purposes, there is no other reason to have a DST on a rifle.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

"Short of the rifle being used for target\match purposes, there is no other reason to have a DST on a rifle."

Suit yourself but don't assume your ideology applies to everyone.  I have killed lots of game including moose with a Hawken style rifle and with a Jaeger, and they both carried double set triggers.  In all cases, the triggers were a boon, not a curse.

[smylee grouch]

I have used both styles on hunting rifles and the only disadvantage for me with DSTs was that there just wasn't very much room in the trigger guard when using gloves in cold weather.

[Steeltrap]

"Short of the rifle being used for target\match purposes, there is no other reason to have a DST on a rifle."

Suit yourself but don't assume your ideology applies to everyone.  I have killed lots of game including moose with a Hawken style rifle and with a Jaeger, and they both carried double set triggers.  In all cases, the triggers were a boon, not a curse.

It's a personal preference as I see it. If you use the firearm for hunting purposes, and not for weekend competition shoots or "fun" shoots, then a DST is fine....if you like the exceptionally light TP. I have my one T\C (subject of this thread) with DST....not T\C but L&R's.

I have one flintlock with a properly placed pivot point and another flintlock pistol with a properly placed pivot point....both single triggers. Pull weight IMHO is perfect for a hunting situation....with or without heavy gloves.

But that's my preference. The use of the DST for hunting (again...MHO) is a double edge sword. The single trigger is to heavy for a consistent accurate shot, and using the set trigger created a far to light pull (again IMHO) when using gloves.....heavy or not. Hunting in cold weather....thus using gloves (and I've used gloves that I intentionally cut the trigger finger piece out) or using a "frozen finger" has resulted in a few misses when I was lining up the sight on the whitetail shoulder and touched (as I was putting my finger inside the TG) off the light weight DST only to have the projectile sail over\under\left\right of the intended target.....and then have the whitetail stand there watching me reload.....just to the point where I'm about to prime the pan.

The result of using the DST when the single trigger pull is to heavy.....and the lighter DST is far to light.

Just my experience after flintlock hunting since the early '80's.

[Dphariss]

I don’t shoot with gloves on. Been hunting with set triggers and “plain” triggers since about 1965. And “heavy” set trigger pulls are simply silly. Putting ones finger on the trigger at the wrong time is a shooter issue, not an equipment issue. And I have done it. But usually not with a ML set trigger or otherwise. But I shoot a lot in another shooting sport. Set triggers and plain triggers are used differently and its a different shooting style unless the set trigger is very heavy.
Now do I want a set trigger that is so light the rifle will fire when the rifle is pointed straight up? No. Some Schuetzen Rifles would back in the day were this light or so I have read. Multi-lever DSTs with an iron/steel finger rest and simply a hard wire for a front trigger. Rest ones finger on the iron bar then just flex the finger tip slightly to touch the wire and fire the rifle.  These sorts are dedicated target triggers as seen in parts of Northern continental Europe.
Hawken Mountain Rifles were made both with the typical DST and with single triggers and I suspect single set triggers. Many English rifles of the period had trigger that looked like a simple trigger but were in reality a SS trigger with no adjustment. I just freshed the barrel on a 60 cal Mortimer stalking rifle for a friend that was so equipped and it had the SS trigger design illustrated in George’s “English Guns and Rifles”  And given the design of the trigger and a quality lock, it had a very nice pull weight when unset. I did not remove the trigger to examine it but could see enough through the sear hole to deduce its design. So its possible that the photo of a plain trigger Hawken might have this trigger.
Bottom line, nothing says you have to have a set trigger on any style American rifle. Though on a Schuetzen it would be an oddity with a plain trigger.

[Jakob]

Short of the rifle being used for target\match purposes, there is no other reason to have a DST on a rifle.

The majority of Jaeger rifles I've seen, have DST.

[Steeltrap]

Ok....mebby a silly question....mebby not....I've never silver soldered until recently and surprised myself with actually making a strong silver solder job work!!

So, my question now is can I silver solder brass to a metal (steel) TG. Thinking of SS a brass boss on each side of my steel TG to move the pivot point where the pound pull will be less than the current 7-lbs.

And if you ask "why brass"...it's because I have a piece of sheet brass that's thick enough to cut out the two pieces needed to make the boss. No other reason.....well....brass is easier to work with.

Can this be done or is SS two different metals a difficult task?

[Bob Roller]

On a single trigger gun the quality of the lock does determine the trigger pull and a trigger with a light spring to keep the release bar in constant contact with the sear arm.I shot a Whitworth semi military match rifle for 11 years and it had a "4 pin"Brazier lock of the best quality and the spring loaded trigger and if the trigger was held forward that lock could be loud with the 2 clicks when cocked.The Brits went all out on high grade locks and were an interesting thing to try to copy.Bill Roberts,Jim Westberg and myself as far as I know were the only ones to get involved with these locks and I am the only one still living and am now 86. Rolf in Norway has a project going now and I am looking forward to his postings and pictures.
Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes you can silver solder brass to steel without issue.  But the metal must be filed bright and clean - no dirt, bluing, oxidation of any kind.  And a good flux and red heat.  But by raising the pivot point on the front trigger, you are changing the architecture of the trigger, and I won't guarantee your trigger will function as you imagine.

[Steeltrap]

Yes you can silver solder brass to steel without issue.  But the metal must be filed bright and clean - no dirt, bluing, oxidation of any kind.  And a good flux and red heat.  But by raising the pivot point on the front trigger, you are changing the architecture of the trigger, and I won't guarantee your trigger will function as you imagine.

Thanks Taylor....if it doesn't work.....I'll just put it back to the original.