Author Topic: Is this an Angstadt rifle?  (Read 4194 times)

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« on: October 24, 2022, 11:53:50 PM »
I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadts, possibly Abraham. Specs are: Barrel 42 1/4 inch octagon, appears to have been bored out slightly from .45 rifled to .50 caliber smoothbore; Overall Length: 57 inches; Stock: Maple; Roman nose; downward facing silver half crescent inlay on the cheek with checkered oval incised carving toward the butt; silver thumb inlay. Four-part lightly engraved brass acorn patchbox. The lock does not have a half-cock position. Any ideas about the gunsmith?






















« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 02:25:17 AM by marko »

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2022, 12:44:12 AM »
EK can confirm. I’m inclined to say it oughta be. Very fine.
Andover, Vermont

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2022, 01:36:02 AM »
I meant to include these photos… Also, comments on the lock would be appreciated.






find duplicates in list

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2022, 07:14:31 AM »
Certainly looks like a gun by one of the Angstat's. The 'railroad tracking' engraving on the PB lid is common to one of the family builders, but I don't recall which one. Beautiful rifle and in quite good condition with all the bells and whistles for a good Allemengal gun. As to the lock, hardware store most likely, but jV, our resident lock expert will hopefully long in on this one. Thank you for posting photos of your outstanding rifle. Much appreciated!
Dick

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2022, 02:05:44 PM »
I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadt, possibly Abraham. The lock does not have a half-cock position.
Your statement about the lock not having a "half-cock" position raises an interesting subject. When did the half cock position in sidelocks become a regular feature.

American Military side locks did not have a half-cock position on the tumbler until the mid 1870's. What about civilian sidelocks?
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2022, 05:54:18 PM »
I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadt, possibly Abraham. The lock does not have a half-cock position.
Your statement about the lock not having a "half-cock" position raises an interesting subject. When did the half cock position in sidelocks become a regular feature.

American Military side locks did not have a half-cock position on the tumbler until the mid 1870's. What about civilian sidelocks?

Hi Kent,
Halfcock notches were the norm since the very inception of the French flintlock in the early 1600s.



On a military flintlock, how would you load in the regulation way without a half cock?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Ats5331

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2022, 06:00:00 PM »
I don’t consider myself an expert, but the Patchbox and cheek carving have a Albright family feel to them. I have a David Albright with a very similar Patchbox, and the incised carving looks like a Jacob Albright. I believe Jacob Sr was apprenticed in the Berks county area

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2022, 09:18:41 PM »
I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadt, possibly Abraham. The lock does not have a half-cock position.
Your statement about the lock not having a "half-cock" position raises an interesting subject. When did the half cock position in sidelocks become a regular feature.

American Military side locks did not have a half-cock position on the tumbler until the mid 1870's. What about civilian sidelocks?

Hi Kent,
Halfcock notches were the norm since the very inception of the French flintlock in the early 1600s.



On a military flintlock, how would you load in the regulation way without a half cock?

dave

Dave,

You are correct of course. I was mixing things up for some known only to my therapist with the three click tumblers of the M1873 Trapdoors. I think the second notch was considered a safety notch in some respects, it really wasn't and it was introduced first on M1873 Carbines only per page 29 of Al Frasca's 45-70 book published in 1980. This is beyond the scope of this forum.

Please do not excommunicate me!!!!!

Kent
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 10:14:30 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2022, 09:36:51 PM »
I was going to post this in the other thread about this lock, but thought would be better here.

The most likely way for the current configuration of this lock is that these components are not all original to the lock plate. Nor is the lock plate original to the rifle.

From what I see, the lock was originally a flintlock, as was the rifle. At some point both were converted to percussion. Then again, both were converted back to flintlock. However, I'm not certain that lock and gun actually came down through time together. One reason, in the next to last picture of the rifle, the lock plate looks to be a good bit too short for the inlet mortice. Not the end of the world, as lots of these guns have replacement locks in them. Some were time of use, others, more recent additions. Actually, lot's of these guns have come down through time with their locks missing.

As for a guess of events, at some point, likely in time of use in some other rifle, the lock was converted to percussion. Maybe the tumbler was broken or missing, or maybe the owner didn't want a half cock notch and the percussion tumbler was installed.

Down the road, at some point this lock and rifle ended up joined. Probably, in the not too distant past, the then owner decided to have it converted back to flint. The job was done, but left many signs of that work being done.

Please don't take this as criticism of your lock or rifle, because it isn't. Lot's of these old guns and locks have gone through several configurations in years past. This is just a simple and reasonable way for a flint rifle to be found with a percussion tumbler in the lock.
John
John Robbins

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2022, 10:56:59 PM »
John, thank you for your observations. In light of your comments, I looked closer at the fit of the lock into the mortised stock. I had thought that the lock was original, but now question that conclusion.

In the attached photo, I have noted two points of possible "non-alignment" between the lock and and stock, and one between the lock and barrel.

I don't understand, though, how you come to the conclusion that the rifle was converted to percussion, although I know that was common for old flintlocks. Can you elaborate?



Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2022, 12:01:55 AM »
Marko,

IMHO what you have is a late Angstadt. Abraham or one of his kids prior to the Ohio / Indiana move.

Buck

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2022, 01:01:53 AM »
Hi Buck,
Was that move to Ohio because of farming or the gun trade?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2022, 01:27:51 AM »
Marko,

I think that you have a great looking rifle, congratulations.

I'm curious as to the measurement from the breech end of the barrel to the touch-hole.

Thanks for posting your photos.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline davebozell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2022, 02:03:45 AM »
Hi Buck,
Was that move to Ohio because of farming or the gun trade?

dave

My father owns a back action locked rifle that has been in our family since the 1870’s.  It is marked “A. Angstadt”.  So whether they were primarily gunmakers or farmers, they did make some rifles.  This one has a hardware store lock from Lafayette, IN.  My family lived in the same Indiana county at the same time as the Angstadt’s.

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2022, 02:12:40 AM »
Buck: could I ask for your rationale in reaching that conclusion? (I tend to agree that the maker was Abraham Angstadt)

WESTbury: 9/32” or 7mm, whichever you prefer  ;)

davebozell: could it be that your family’s rifle was made in Berks County, Pennsylvania, and carried West?

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2022, 02:45:09 AM »
WESTbury: 9/32” or 7mm, whichever you prefer  ;)

Thanks. The threaded portion of the breech plug must be notched, or not?

By the way, the metric system is much easier to work with. I spent three years designing machines for a German company and once I got use to using the metric system, the English system seemed rather arcane.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2022, 03:02:05 AM »
WESTbury… (P.S. I agree with you about metric. Too bad we didn’t convert around 1970 when the effort was made.)


Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2022, 03:31:50 AM »
Great photo of the barrel touch-hole area. Have you tried pulling the breechplug?
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2022, 03:48:57 AM »
No, I haven't. Is there a reason I should? (I removed the barrel in hope of finding some identifier on its bottom... alas, no such luck).

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2022, 05:00:05 AM »
No, I haven't. Is there a reason I should?

That is really the only sure way to determine if the barrel was percussion altered with a screw-in drum. From your photo, it does not appear that it was but some of the restorers out there are magicians.

I'm hoping that the barrel is in original flint condition.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2022, 08:40:18 PM »
Smart Dog,

I couldn't speak to why they migrated West, only that he and his family did. They were in Ohio briefly and moved on to Indiana where his family established a pretty lucrative gunsmith business.

Buck

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2022, 12:12:51 AM »
Hi,
Thanks Buck.

I ask because there was such a migration even from New England to the midwest because of more and better land.  In fact, it really depopulated some parts of Vermont during the first quarter of the 19th century.

dave

"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2022, 01:36:08 AM »
Oops I'm late to the party I see!   :P

Buck here certainly knows his stuff though.  My primary interests are Adam and his sons Peter and Joseph.  I'm still not clear on who the heck was Abraham's father but this sure does have the look of a later Abraham piece, 19th century.  Still, there are some neat characteristics that tie back to the earlier Angstadts imho, the triangular stampings on the box and the neat little diamond shape tail on the sideplate a couple of them.  Guard filing and shaping also.  Cool rifle!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline davebozell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2022, 02:08:43 AM »
Buck: could I ask for your rationale in reaching that conclusion? (I tend to agree that the maker was Abraham Angstadt)

WESTbury: 9/32” or 7mm, whichever you prefer  ;)

davebozell: could it be that your family’s rifle was made in Berks County, Pennsylvania, and carried West?

I think the Lafayette, Indiana marked lock and and the fact that the Angstadt family arrived in Indiana after 1850, points to it being made in Indiana.  Unfortunately, our family rifle is nowhere near as spectacular as yours.

Offline marko

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Is this an Angstadt rifle?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2022, 03:25:14 PM »
Marko,

IMHO what you have is a late Angstadt. Abraham or one of his kids prior to the Ohio / Indiana move.

Buck

Buck: could I ask for your rationale in reaching that conclusion? (I tend to agree that the maker was Abraham Angstadt)