Is this an Angstadt rifle?

[JTR]

John, thank you for your observations.
I don't understand, though, how you come to the conclusion that the rifle was converted to percussion, although I know that was common for old flintlocks. Can you elaborate?

marko,
Sorry I missed your question earlier.
As for the touch hole, to me it just looks sort of indistinct, with a shadow of a larger circle around it. It also looks to be too far to the rear, maybe to line up with the center of the pan on the little bit too short lock.

Now I might be all wrong, just looking at the picture.

If you want to know for sure, and the barrel hasn't been shortened from the rear, pull the breech plug out, and the truth will be there to see.

Nice gun none the less!!!

John

[rich pierce]

To determine where the face of the breechplug is, put a long rod in it, mark the rod at the muzzle, lay it along the barrel and there it is.

I don’t see enough there to figure out if the lock is original to the gun but that lock was a flintlock when it was new. The lockbox fitting to the era of the gun.

[JTR]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting unbreeching it to determine the length of the plug. I was suggesting to pull the plug, and look where the touch hole comes through to the inside of the barrel. If it's original flint, there will be solid barrel steel with only the through hole through it. If it's reconverted to flint, you should be able to see the end of whatever was screwed into the percussion drum threads, and maybe some threaded portion of barrel wall as well.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Most flintlocks were converted to percussion, and a lot back to flint. In the end, no big deal.

 

[Buck]

Marko,

Abraham had a distinctly different style than his uncles and father. He’s the only Angstadt of that generation that had a refined engraving ability. His architecture followed the Reading school as opposed to the LeHigh style - I’d defer to Eric to elaborate on that. The carving is (IMHO)of the Susquehanna style which he did employ as he was a gunsmith in that region for a short while. I believe He was a quality gunsmith possibly the most consistent of his clan - again I defer to Eric as he is a fan of Peter and these might be fighting words. The side plate is interesting and not what I would consider an Abraham staple, more in line with the work of Peter or Joseph. I’d definitely place it later in his career, maybe even a build after he left PA. I’d have to have it in hand, but it’s definitely a later rifle.

Additionally, his lineage as Eric stated is been a topic debated several times here on the forum. If your interested you should be able to locate the thread - I believe it was last year sometime.

Regards and enjoy the rifle.
Buck

[cshirsch]

My A. Angstadt rifle

[JV Puleo]

At typical Birmingham-made export lock. From the picture of the lock in the gun, I'd guess it was replaced at some time. That isn't as difficult as it would be today. The locks were made in huge quantities by specialist lock makers. They were offered by the dozen in things like "rifle size", "pistol size" etc. The manufacturing techniques were not flexible enough to accommodate wide variations so, in period, you could probably go to whoever supplied it and find another that was quite close to the old one. It wasn't "interchangeable" parts in the modern sense but it was as close as anyone could get at the time...


And Kent...the metric system is fine for engineers. From a machinist's point of view it's a huge PIA. The milimeter simply isn't anywhere near as easy to use for precision work as a thousandth of an inch...1 mm = .0397 while a tenth of a mm is .00397. One is too big and the other too small. Add to that the huge complication of transposing the figures if all your machines are graduated in thousandths and it's a real time killer.

[marko]

My A. Angstadt rifle

Chris, Is your Angstadt rifle signed? "A. Angstadt"? Any carving on the cheek? Inlays anywhere? Patchbox engravings are very similar to mine.

[marko]

Marko,

Abraham had a distinctly different style than his uncles and father. He’s the only Angstadt of that generation that had a refined engraving ability. His architecture followed the Reading school as opposed to the LeHigh style - I’d defer to Eric to elaborate on that. The carving is (IMHO)of the Susquehanna style which he did employ as he was a gunsmith in that region for a short while. I believe He was a quality gunsmith possibly the most consistent of his clan - again I defer to Eric as he is a fan of Peter and these might be fighting words. The side plate is interesting and not what I would consider an Abraham staple, more in line with the work of Peter or Joseph. I’d definitely place it later in his career, maybe even a build after he left PA. I’d have to have it in hand, but it’s definitely a later rifle.

Additionally, his lineage as Eric stated is been a topic debated several times here on the forum. If your interested you should be able to locate the thread - I believe it was last year sometime.

Regards and enjoy the rifle.
Buck

For a number of reasons, I am coming to the conclusion that my rifle is out of Abraham Angstadt's shop in the 1820-1830 timeframe, likely having been converted to percussion, then reconverted to flintlock with the current lock (and backing plate) that has always been a flintlock.

Abraham Angstadt (1783-1867) the gunsmith was in Orwigsburg, Schuylkill Co., PA, at this time according to the 1820 and 1830 US Censuses. (Another Abraham Angstadt (1764-1842) lived his whole life in Berks Co., likely as a farmer.)

Here's the rub... Abraham the gunsmith moved further to Indiana where he died in 1867. He signed his will with "his mark," not with his signature. Odd that he would do that if he was, in fact, the subscriber of the "A. Angstadt" or "A.A." rifles. Could these have been another Abraham Angstadt? The one who remained in Berks Co.? Or an Adam Angstadt?

Buck, I am slowly working my way through all the Angstadt posts on this forum and slowly adding them to my genealogical database on the Angstadts. If you - or anyone else here - is interested, I have posted my research on the family at http://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tools/tree/185760137/invitees/accept?inviteId=a88d5744-7e95-4802-8ccd-434f0170f17f

The Angstadt gunsmiths are all indicated by a rifle stock as their identifier photo.

[Buck]

Marko,

The AA and A.Angstadts rifles are Abrahams - all the same hand. The rifle you posses follows the Schuykill / River style or i.e. the Susquehanna style. I'll run through the cliff notes version:

1.) Thought to be Adams son from second wife.
2.) Learned the trade in Reading, Adam was in Reading about this time (1795) building clocks. Quick note - a signed Adam rifle does not
     exist,  however there is one Grandfather Clock that is signed Adam Angstadt.
3.) Adam and Abraham return to Rockland where Abraham works and eventually runs Angstadt and Son. Notice the singular - Joseph
     was the Son, Peter didn't participate. Eric has extensive info and theory's about Peter.
4.) Abraham eventually takes full control of Angstadt and Son after the passing of Adam. There's more but I don't have the paperwork
     in front of me. If I recall correctly there was an elderly Male in Abrahams household around the time Adam passed away (per
     census) - possibly Adam.
5.) Abraham moves on to Orwigsburg where he continues building rifles, then to Ohio, and then onto Indiana.

I have the AA Swivel that is pictured in "The Kentucky Rifle" by Merril Lindsey. Your rifle is either a late Abraham or he taught the smith that crafted your rifle (one of his sons). There were several sons, I believe there was a gunsmith or two in that group. Abraham's style is completely different from the rest of his Brothers / Uncles and Father / Grandfather. Adam is likely his father, though Joseph and Peter were old enough to father him.

If you have information please share. I can say that Dave M, Eric K and I would love to see it.

Chris - looks like a fine rifle, love to see more of it.

Regards,

Buck




   

[JTR]

Here's a couple pictures of the A Angstat signed rifle I had some years ago. At the time I thought it was Adam, but maybe not?
Sorry for the background. At the time, it seemed like a good idea?

[cshirsch]

OK, here's a few more photos of my Angstadt for comparison. 

[marko]

OK, here's a few more photos of my Angstadt for comparison. 

Thanks. I see many similarities between your AA rifle and mine. 

[Buck]

John,

Great rifle, definitely Abraham.

Chris,

Also a great Abraham rifle, beautiful patch box.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

The will is interesting but I would raise two points:  being able to hammer grave letters or "shapes" on a barrel doesn't mean that one likewise can write anything more elaborate in ink, and the use of the 'mark' or X also may only mean that at the time the will was recorded, he was infirm or otherwise unable to sign his name if he could in fact write.  Just thinking of a couple of alternatives here.

Edit:  I would add that - to my mind - the fact that these all seem to be simply marked "AA" might reinforce the concept that he was not able to write very much, and perhaps the two single "A" letters is what he could manage to engrave competently (especially since they are the same form or letter) as opposed to a complete name.

[eastwind]

BUCK: Saw your ALR comment on Angstadt, referring to Adam as a clockmaker While I note that some records in Berks County show him as a clockmaker, no one seems to know of an example. He is shown in Maxatawny tax lists for 1793-1799 as both a gunsmith and a clockmaker later in life, but no one seems to have a clock by him, including the Kutztown Historical Society. Those dates indicate this would be Adam senior (1740-1812).
   And if so, what part of the clock did he make? - most often the name on the face/dial is the final assembly maker- the guy who put the 3 parts together-case, works and face- or may only be the marketeer/store/broker of the clock. Tall case clocks generally have more maker/seller signatures than any gunbarrels.

My question is: have you seen a tall case clock signed by Adam Angstadt? I cant find anyone who has seen a signed Angstadt clock-where is your source for that possibility?

hope to seeya in York  next week

Patrick Hornberger

[Buck]

Patrick,









These photos have been around for 30 plus years.

Buck

[Buck]

Patrick / Eric,

You'll have to excuse the previous post, was a bit under the weather last night. When I received the photos of the clock a lengthy discussion followed, the origin of the clock and Adams documented time in Reading as a clock maker. Also, the theory of Abrahams apprenticeship in Reading, his eventual take over of the gunsmith business and migration West. The debate of his parentage, the possibility of Joseph and Peter and the probability of Adam. Adam's second marriage to Dorothea was discussed as was the possibility of an extramarital affair. Abraham is a bit of a mystery, his Reading style, Adams documented time there and Abrahams inheritance of the business points to that family. He had 4 sons, 1 Peter and 1 Adam. Namesakes - Brother and Father or Father and Grandfather - which is it?  Just a theory of course.

Abrahams direct family tree: