Author Topic: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock  (Read 2777 times)

Offline JHeath

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actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« on: October 27, 2022, 12:33:22 AM »
A Metís at Fort Garry (now Winnipeg) 1826. Painted by Rindisbacher, a young Swiss clerk of the Hudson Bay Company. He was known for accurate detail of native life.

So it's a flinter on the northern plains, in the fur trade, halfstock, scroll guard, escutcheons instead of sideplate.

But of course it must be English. I suspect this one is a smoothbore. The barrel looks long, it has no cheekpiece, and sights aren't visible. On the other hand from what I have seen, English fowlers typically have shorter forearms than this, single-key. The rifles I've seen frequently have longer forearms, like this one, double key. And scroll guards seem much more common on English rifles than fowlers. But I think the rifles had cheekpieces more often than not.

So possibly this is a rifle, or not.

Perhaps many have seen this image. But some have not so I'm passing it along. Anyway there were surely heavy-barreled, 31", big-bore, halfstock, scroll-guard, escutcheoned, "plains rifles" before the percussion era. They just weren't American-made. Some arrived on the plains through St-Louis, others through Winnipeg.



https://recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/home/record?app=fonandcol&IdNumber=2835810






« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 12:55:06 AM by JHeath »

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2022, 01:21:33 AM »
The British made some fancy trade rifles that were comparable to the high grade commercial rifles sold in England. They looked very much like the one painted in the image you linked to.

Mike

Offline rich pierce

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2022, 01:59:21 AM »
I think I see checkering on image 2 which leans me more toward an English source. Smoothbores seem to have outnumbered rifles in Canada during the fur trade.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2022, 03:27:51 AM »
While it is not a half stock rifle, it is an example of the type of guns the British gave to the high ranking warriors they were trying to persuade. These were actually produced on an Ordnance pattern  There were halfstock patterns purchased as well.


Here are more photos:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__RARE_INDIAN_DEPARTMENT_FLINTLOCK_PRESENTATION_-lot485110.aspx

Mike


Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2022, 03:49:46 AM »
While it is not a half stock rifle, it is an example of the type of guns the British gave to the high ranking warriors they were trying to persuade. These were actually produced on an Ordnance pattern  There were halfstock patterns purchased as well.


Here are more photos:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__RARE_INDIAN_DEPARTMENT_FLINTLOCK_PRESENTATION_-lot485110.aspx

Mike

That's one of my favourite rifles. A lot of English sporting flint guns and rifles turn up cased. I wonder if that is why they were half-stocked: to fit in a case dismounted. The Board of Ordnance Indian presentation rifles would not have been cased, so they could be full-stocked.

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2022, 04:16:56 AM »
Probably a combination of both being able to be cased, and it was (and still is) cheaper to get the stock blanks. So an economic benefit to the gunmaker can be sold to the customer as an upgrade feature!

Mike

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2022, 04:25:36 AM »
Probably a combination of both being able to be cased, and it was (and still is) cheaper to get the stock blanks. So an economic benefit to the gunmaker can be sold to the customer as an upgrade feature!

Mike

I haven't built a muzzleloader. I have read that correctly building a halfstock is more involved. I assumed that the labor more than offset the lumber savings.

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2022, 01:33:43 AM »
While it is not a half stock rifle, it is an example of the type of guns the British gave to the high ranking warriors they were trying to persuade. These were actually produced on an Ordnance pattern  There were halfstock patterns purchased as well.


Here are more photos:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__RARE_INDIAN_DEPARTMENT_FLINTLOCK_PRESENTATION_-lot485110.aspx

Mike




Mike, I found a biography of Rindisbacher and discovered something really interesting.

When Fort Garry (Winnipeg) had a catastrophic flood in 1826, a bunch of the settlers moved to St. Louis. The flood pretty much wiped out Fort Garry as a settlement, and in 1826 where else could they go? East of the Great Lakes? They and the Metís were already geographically and culturally connected to the northern plains and the Missouri watershed. So St. Louis made sense.

There's an 1823 self-portrait of Rindisbacher with an apparent English fowler.

So if the question is how the English design made it to St. Louis and the plains before Hawken copied it, that's one channel. Also, fur trade goods importers were bringing in English rifles to Chouteau in St Louis; Ashley was ordering "English pattern" rifles; and according to Mike Brooks some east coast US late-flintlock builders were copying or near-copying English rifles. Examples appeared in a previous thread.

It is simply obvious that the Hawken plains design is copied directly from English late-flint rifles, with an American style crescent butt and increased drop, and set triggers. Otherwise it's practically the same rifle: 31"-32" bbl, big bore, halfstock, two wedges, standing/hooked breech, scroll guard. It is not coincidence.




Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2022, 02:00:04 AM »
There were some US retailers selling English made guns over here with local markings. There are a couple marked BALTIMORE up for auction right now with Birmingham proofs. Also the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle was heavily influenced by English design, so there were plenty of English or English influenced designs around for ideas. I suspect that the Hawkens simply followed the popular trends, as any tradesman will do, and designed their guns accordingly.

Mike

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2022, 04:26:01 AM »
There were some US retailers selling English made guns over here with local markings. There are a couple marked BALTIMORE up for auction right now with Birmingham proofs. Also the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle was heavily influenced by English design, so there were plenty of English or English influenced designs around for ideas. I suspect that the Hawkens simply followed the popular trends, as any tradesman will do, and designed their guns accordingly.

Mike

Is the Baltimore rifle a Maslin? A while back
I found a Maslin-marked auction listing that was English or English-influenced. Maslin also imported fur trade goods iirc.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2022, 04:35:51 AM »
How come no pictures working.?
says "Image can not be found"

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2022, 04:50:36 AM »
I too don't get the pics . Also some geography, Winnipeg is on the Red River of the North and not in the Missouri watershed. There was trade though between Ft. Pembina  on the Red and Ft. Mandan/Clark on the Missouri.

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2022, 06:22:52 AM »
No, not a Maslin. This one is a fowler engraved BALTIMORE on the barrel, and HASLETT one the lock. The barrel has Tower private or private Pre 1813 Birmingham proofs and is stamped TK between the proofs, so most likely a Ketland export retailer marked gun.

Mike

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2022, 06:39:35 AM »
I too don't get the pics . Also some geography, Winnipeg is on the Red River of the North and not in the Missouri watershed. There was trade though between Ft. Pembina  on the Red and Ft. Mandan/Clark on the Missouri.

Yes. The Missouri is on the northern plains, which extend into Manitoba. The Red River of the north arises in N. Dakota and is the border between ND and MN.  The two rivers pass fairly close. Fargo ND is on the Red River of the North. Bismark ND is on the Missouri. The source of the Red River extends into South Dakota.


If you were in Fort Garry in 1826, the Missouri watershed and Plains Indians were  part of your neighborhood. The "height of land" watershed divide between the Red River (and ultimately Hudson Bay) and the Missouri (ultimately the Gulf of Mexico) is hardly distinguishable. There's no  mountain range to cross.

In 1826 if you abandoned Ft Garry looking to start over St. Louis actually makes perfect sense.

Last spring I drove from BC to Winnipeg to pick up a 24' wood/canvas freighter canoe built by a French-Canadian family that took over remnants of a Hudson Bay Co canoe factory in Quebec. Their affiliate in Winnipeg is the resurrected North West Company, divested in modern times by the HBC (they merged in 1821) The NWC still buy firs from Inuit, and operates outpost stores in the far north. The Inuit use these canoes to hunt seals, narwhal, beluga, walrus.

I'm from mountain country. But to me it seems like if you stand on a milk crate you can d**n near see St. Louis from Winnipeg. Basicslly the area between St Louis, Edmonton, and Winnipeg is one big triangular pool table.

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2022, 06:41:16 AM »
No, not a Maslin. This one is a fowler engraved BALTIMORE on the barrel, and HASLETT one the lock. The barrel has Tower private or private Pre 1813 Birmingham proofs and is stamped TK between the proofs, so most likely a Ketland export retailer marked gun.

Mike

Can you post the link? I'd really like to see it, and promise not to buy it out from under you. ;^]

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2022, 06:50:57 AM »
I think I see checkering on image 2 which leans me more toward an English source. Smoothbores seem to have outnumbered rifles in Canada during the fur trade.

The wrist is definitely checkered, I have a higher-res image in a book.

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2022, 06:59:23 AM »
How come no pictures working.?
says "Image can not be found"

Don't know. But my post at top also links the image.

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2022, 02:34:27 PM »
Here is the Haslett/Ketland Sorry I should have pasted this in the earlier post.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=553368

Mike

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2022, 10:48:35 PM »
Here is the Haslett/Ketland Sorry I should have pasted this in the earlier post.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=553368

Mike

No standing breech. I guess it's Birmingham, or a Birmingham barrel on an American build.

There's a story to be told about the introduction of late-flint English guns and their influence in America. The "Golden Age" of the longrifle ended after all, and English-derived plains rifles and halfstocks followed.

The really interesting fact is the divergence in shooting styles. English rifles were basically built like fowlers for shoulder-mounted snap shooting with single triggers. But Americans had already adopted crescent plates for cross-body/upper arm mounting, and set triggers. Americans were obviously more precision-oriented. The plains rifles are English-design rifles modified for American-style precision shooting.

 I hear people dispute that deep crescent butts are mounted to the upper arm, and shot cross-body, offhand. it makes me wonder if they've ever seen a scheutzen buttplate, or if they would try to mount it to their shoulder pocket like a shotgun.

The adoption of the crescent butt must have followed the shift in shooting style, as a reaction to the market. So presumably Americsns were shooting cross-body with flat plates for a short period.

George Ruxton's fine London rifle was modified for a crescent plate. The stock was chopped, a section of similar high-grade wood grafted on the back, and a crescent fitted:

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/blog/index.php/2018/11/22/ruxtons-other-rifle/


Offline RAT

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2022, 02:53:58 AM »
James Haslett was  gunsmith residing in Baltimore Maryland. He was born in Ireland in 1773 and trained as a gunsmith in the UK. He came to America around 1798. He first lived in Philadelphia, later moving to Baltimore in June 1803. He made English style half stock dueling pistols as well as long guns. Many... many... many... American gunsmiths made English style half stock dueling pistols. They were very popular. Philip Creamer made flint half stock dueling pistols. The Hawken brothers made half stock dueling pistols.

Jacob Hawken worked in Harpers Ferry during the model of 1803 rifle period of use. An English made half stock rifle didn't need to just show up in St. Louis in 1826 for the Hawken brothers to know the style. They knew what an English rifle looked like. They weren't the only gunsmiths moving in that direction during the 1820's and (even more so) the 1830's. As has been said... they were following the trends. They were just a little more progressive, and less conservative, that many American gunsmiths. But they weren't the only ones.

The bigger question for me has always been... what do James Lakenan rifles look like? Has anyone ever come across one?
Bob

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2022, 06:37:02 PM »
James Haslett was  gunsmith residing in Baltimore Maryland. He was born in Ireland in 1773 and trained as a gunsmith in the UK. He came to America around 1798. He first lived in Philadelphia, later moving to Baltimore in June 1803. He made English style half stock dueling pistols as well as long guns. Many... many... many... American gunsmiths made English style half stock dueling pistols. They were very popular. Philip Creamer made flint half stock dueling pistols. The Hawken brothers made half stock dueling pistols.

Jacob Hawken worked in Harpers Ferry during the model of 1803 rifle period of use. An English made half stock rifle didn't need to just show up in St. Louis in 1826 for the Hawken brothers to know the style. They knew what an English rifle looked like. They weren't the only gunsmiths moving in that direction during the 1820's and (even more so) the 1830's. As has been said... they were following the trends. They were just a little more progressive, and less conservative, that many American gunsmiths. But they weren't the only ones.

The bigger question for me has always been... what do James Lakenan rifles look like? Has anyone ever come across one?

That is what interests me in the shift away from longrifles. How and why? I see little to no in-depth discussion of it. It's a major, major shift in the big picture of American rifles. I'm a historian, and good history pulls at different loose threads to see what's connected and build a bigger narrative.

It looks to me like the broad stages of American rifles are:

*Jaegers arriving with immigrants
*Murky transition period
*Lengthening of the bbl and reduced caliber. Why? Undetermined reasons, possibly attributable to perceived ballistics and economy of powder.
*Flat butt single trigger Golden Age longrifles
*Trend toward deep crescent butt DS trigger longrifles. This must reflect a popular shift to a target-style cross-body shooting position. Why the change? I don't accept that people were shooting meathook crescent plates from the shoulder pocket because they fancied the look. The butts are like scheutzen plates. It's implausible.
*Murky transitional period to English-influenced plains rifles but with deep crescent butts and DS triggers
* Longrifles fade out with regional exceptions. Golden Age long over.
* Halfstock sporting rifles selling from multiple regions.

Longrifles seem to begin with a murky transition from jaegers, and end with a murky transition toward English style rifles. It seems like the end of the story is as important as the beginning but people don't seem very interested in understanding it.

Offline RAT

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2022, 09:50:50 PM »
There's a really good answer to all your questions... it's called "fashion".

During the 17th century, continental arms were more highly decorated and more advanced that English made arms. By the middle 18th century The English had copied the better made continental styles and were on par with continental Europe. By the late 18th century, continental arms styles became somewhat more static, with less advancement. The English maintained there advancements and surpassed  continental Europe. In some parts of America the styes stagnated. More progressive gunsmiths (and customers) followed the better arms coming out of Europe at the time... and those were made by the English. They simply copied the best that were being made at the time... but as artists... put their own spin on them.

You see the exact same thing with clothing fashion... cars... whatever. If there was a logical... scientific... cause and effect... reason for everything... then why do men still wear ties. There's no practical modern reason for doing so. Have you seen men stand up and have to button their dress coat... then... when they sit down again... they have to unbutton the coat. Stand up... button. Sit down... unbutton. Over and over. There's no "has to be a reason" reason for this. It's just fashion trends. We learn more by studying the trends than trying to explain them.
Bob

Offline JHeath

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2022, 02:00:09 AM »
There's a really good answer to all your questions... it's called "fashion".

During the 17th century, continental arms were more highly decorated and more advanced that English made arms. By the middle 18th century The English had copied the better made continental styles and were on par with continental Europe. By the late 18th century, continental arms styles became somewhat more static, with less advancement. The English maintained there advancements and surpassed  continental Europe. In some parts of America the styes stagnated. More progressive gunsmiths (and customers) followed the better arms coming out of Europe at the time... and those were made by the English. They simply copied the best that were being made at the time... but as artists... put their own spin on them.

You see the exact same thing with clothing fashion... cars... whatever. If there was a logical... scientific... cause and effect... reason for everything... then why do men still wear ties. There's no practical modern reason for doing so. Have you seen men stand up and have to button their dress coat... then... when they sit down again... they have to unbutton the coat. Stand up... button. Sit down... unbutton. Over and over. There's no "has to be a reason" reason for this. It's just fashion trends. We learn more by studying the trends than trying to explain them.

Setting aside engraving, finish etc, you are certainly correct that not all technical features have rational explanations. But some do. And sometimes the "fashion" as you say is actually the pattern of use, and the tech feature is a rational response. For instance, if there grew a "fashion" of shooting cross-body, then flat plates might morph into better-functioning crescent plates that anchored above the bicep.

Or theoretically the inverse could happen: gently curved plates might for aesthetic reasons become deeper and then for comfort's sake shooters started shooting cross-body, which allowed plates to become even deeper like some SMRs. This would still reflect a change in use. If everybody dug the cool schuetzen "look", they'd start holding rifles schuetzen-style whether they wanted to or not. There's no choice.

But it is unlikely that the crescent plate came first out of aesthetics causing everybody to switch style just to deal with a painful, irrational plate.

And since target shooters from schuetzen to today shoot cross-body, many with extended buttplate hooks, it seems pretty likely that American longrifleman had a rational reason for shooting cross-body and crescent plates followed.

What's completely implausible to me is that crescent plates were adopted for the "look" but jabbed into the shoulder pocket like a flat plate.

And sometimes tech features are not fashion but reflect lack of understanding. Americans might have overestimated the tech advantage of long barrels because they lacked chronographs, but then the barrels had a rationale other than fashion.

Fighter planes post-1945 don't have swept wings because it looks cooler. Guns are tools and design responds to how they are used, the state of technology, or other reasons.

.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2022, 05:39:57 PM »
Rat,
I agree with your post above, but just want to say I would set your dates back a bit regarding English guns coming into pre-eminence.
Top flight English guns of the second  quarter of the 18th C are  second to none. Note, I mean the top flight or best.
We see a break-off often used by the 1740's, (hooked breech) and fully bridled locks both inside and out.   Continental locks often retained unbridled pand for a much longer period.
I hope this doesn't come over as nit picking, and I must admit, that some of the best "English" makers of that period came from Europe!  LOL.
Thinking of Lewis Barbar in particular!

all the best,
Richard.

Offline RAT

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Re: actual 1826 plains flint halfstock
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2022, 12:54:13 AM »
JH... Seems I remember a very long discussion you started awhile back about the whole crescent buttplate thing. I'll offer 2 thoughts...

One... it looks "rakish"... so I think fashion has something to do with it.

Two... I'll stick with the theory I offered on the other post... I think it had more to do with loading than shooting. On the other post I included a painting (by George Caleb Bingham) showing a competitive shooter loading his rifle. The rifle is not held vertical, but leaning back. I also posted a photo of John Caleb Vincent loading a rifle. He's loading it in the same position. A flat buttplate would slip out to the rear if loaded that way. A crescent buttplate "sticks" to the ground better and will prevent that.

In the end I think it has way more to do with style than anything else. But... then again... I never wear a tie.
Bob