Author Topic: Opinions welcomed updated FINAL, well, not really. (Read 5194 times)

rich pierce · « **Reply #25 on:** November 18, 2022, 06:03:42 PM »

I looks like it’s been skinned. Draw filed through the pitting, stock with finish touched up. That’s ok, it’s intact.

Molly · « **Reply #26 on:** November 18, 2022, 08:05:26 PM »

The metal of the barrel shows a much greater degree of corrosion that what is shown further forward and on the left side. Skinned, refreshed or whatever it's still appealing. Guess we'll just need to buy it so we can get lots of better pics and resume the discussion. I do not think there is any question of it having soddy features and that alone gives it appeal. When was the last time anyone saw a two piece butt plate (except CCF)? Or a sheet of pewter (?) tacked on as a cap to the butt plate? Sure, it's not an investment grade rifle but at the right price....

Well know tomorrow this time. So with all the expertise on board, what will the final bid be? Come on, stick your neck out guys.

Molly

JTR · « **Reply #27 on:** November 19, 2022, 02:59:55 AM »

$1250...

Molly · « **Reply #28 on:** November 19, 2022, 03:49:26 AM »

I think that's a good number. At least we have one opinion. OTHERS?

?

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2022, 05:24:11 AM »

... worth at least that, if it was a new build,... you might make out like a bandit,... fingers crossed for you,... !!!

Molly · « **Reply #30 on:** November 19, 2022, 02:52:37 PM »

It seems to have picked up a lot of interest overnight. I think there is some buyers making a connection to all the civil war items in the line-up. A old bag and a pair of horns are one lot behind this gun. So "I'm sure the bag, horns and gun were used by a southerner fighting the Yankees in the War of Northern Aggression'

People find reasons to believe what they want to. Pre-bidding closes in about 10 minutes. CCF, I'll send you an email with my guess so you can confirm after the auction.

Molly

Molly · « **Reply #31 on:** November 19, 2022, 05:06:58 PM »

Got it for $1000. I (he) was way off expecting it to go higher.

oldtravler61 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 19, 2022, 05:34:20 PM »

Molly you did in my opinion ( which means squat ) very well..! Congrats

WadePatton · « **Reply #33 on:** November 19, 2022, 05:51:26 PM »

Good job. Congrats.

Hey, now you get to yank that lock.

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #34 on:** November 19, 2022, 07:21:36 PM »

.. Yep,... I think you made out like a bandit,... !!! ... proud for you,... can't wait to hold and examine,...!!! ... regards and congrats,... Cades Cove Fiddler,.....

RAT · « **Reply #35 on:** November 19, 2022, 10:54:01 PM »

Did you also get the bag and horn? It's always a shame when these get separated. Historically, I think it's important to keep these items together whenever possible.

Molly · « **Reply #36 on:** November 20, 2022, 03:11:47 AM »

Bob: No, did not get the bag and horns. It was pretty rough and there was no assertion that it went with this gun as there were several others in the auction. I'm not sure that it was even the same consignor.

Pics of the lock, mortise and bore below. Hubby is convinced it is an original although maybe later that the listing suggested. There is a number of small dings and some shrinkage in one area. It is a 50 cal, might actually more like a 52. Most likely the original hickory rod and the jag is not a "new" style...,pics later. Trigger guard was hand forged and maybe a repair at the rear finial where the guard attaches . And maybe a name in block print on the barrel back about half way between the breech and rear sight. Cannot make it out but one letter at what looks to be the beginning looks like a "C". Don't see any wood replacement. OLD AND SWEET!

LynnC · « **Reply #37 on:** November 20, 2022, 06:15:34 AM »

Great Purchase. Blow by Blow I am enjoying this post and look forward to your findings.

rich pierce · « **Reply #38 on:** November 20, 2022, 05:42:06 PM »

Nice looking gun. If the sear spring is made of flat stock wound around the sear spring screw instead of forged, it is post 1900. Rifling with wide grooves and narrow lands is rarely seen on common sporting rifles from the 1800s in my experience. Same is true of the crown treatment.

oldtravler61 · « **Reply #39 on:** November 21, 2022, 03:48:20 AM »

Molly the more I look at this gun I think hubby is right. Looking at the lock mortice it screams mid 1800 to me. I do believe it has strong Soddy influence.
The comb plate is interesting indeed. I have seen only one other simular to yours and personally I think the maker did it that way because he wanted to..
He probably had no idea that we would come along and dissect it latter on. He just liked what he did.
Maybe he seen it on another rifle at the time ? But like all Soddies I have seen and handled. Like C.C.F. said they are all well taken care of. Been studying Soddies for almost 40 years still learning...

Molly · « **Reply #40 on:** November 21, 2022, 04:29:15 AM »

We have gotten sidetracked today but hubby did get additional photos and took measurements. Regardless it is a sweet little rifle and we are both very happy with it. Actually to this point it has proven to be very entertaining and we have not even pulled the trigger! (And may never do so.) I did check the listings and the bag and horns did come from the same seller. I do wish we would have made an attempt to buy them even though the bag was pretty rough, missing a flap. I do think the name on the barrel is going to remain a mystery. Two small letters at one point appear to be a "C and an L" but then in another location are cap letter that are either "C" or maybe "G" but the rest remains totally illegible. Also, the heel "cap" is a ferrous metal, not pewter. Thimbles appear to be brass but are not. Here is one good photo of the guard. Pinned at the front, screw at the rear. Also one of the thimbles and then a left and right shot. Cleaned with Murphy's oil soap spray, dried good and applied a bit of Renaissance wax. Like I said earlier, not from 1800 to 1825 as claimed by the auction house and they are generally pretty good in their disclosures.

Just a comment on overall condition. On the wall are two original Ambrose Lawings. Condition of those are as good as this one. Also the W W Lawing posted a few weeks ago is equally as good. Those TN guys took care of and valued their rifles.

AND NOW IT'S TIME FOR SOME MORE TENNESSEE....GEORGE DICKEL BOTTLED IN BOND.

Molly · « **Reply #41 on:** November 23, 2022, 06:09:54 PM »

So, just to wrap it up...
58 inches overall length, barrel length 42 and 3/8ths, barrel about 13/16th at the muzzle, straight barrel.
Thimbles look brass but are "iron". The cap on the heel is also "iron" not pewter.
The butt is 1.5 inches at the widest part.
3 screw tang 6.5 inches long.
Guard is pinned in the front and uses a screw at the back.
4 barrel pins.
The bore is slightly larger than a 50 but a thick patch and a .495 ball would work OK.

The bore condition does not support that this was a rifle made in the 1st quarter of the 19th century as the listing stated. HOWEVER....
Husband spoke to a very well known barrel guy yesterday by phone. He did not see the pictures but said that he had refreshed many old guns over the years although does not do it today. The conclusion about that was that it was time consuming, expensive and apparently somewhat difficult. There were shades of a feeling that it was not proper but that was never said. What was said was that there are a "lot of old guns out there that do not have "old" bores.
Note that this was an issue raised in the initial post. "It has been made into a shooter".

Beyond the bore, the overall condition does strongly suggest that it is an "old" gun.

Several years ago we were asked to help a local attorney find a new home for an "antique" rifle. We went to pick it up and found it to be in exceptional condition. It had a signed barrel but the bore was bright. It had a flash hole liner and a replacement lock. Another example of an "old gun" with a refreshed bore and made into a shooter. It was examined by several (3) well known NC rifle experts. The critical element was that they concluded that it had been restocked, probably in the period. Actually, only two made that conclusion. One was much less certain but yielded to the views of the other two. None who examined that rifle had any negative comments on the refreshed bore

So, it will remain a controversy and probably never be resolved in an absolute manner and sometime in the future some will see it first hand and draw their own conclusions. Thanks for all the opinions.

Daryl · « **Reply #42 on:** November 23, 2022, 08:36:16 PM »

Well done, Molly and your Hubby - antique or not - a steal.

jdm · « **Reply #43 on:** November 24, 2022, 12:07:04 AM »

I personally see no problem with refreshed barrels on this type of rifle. They were being used in match shooting well into the 20th century. Good find !

bama · « **Reply #44 on:** November 24, 2022, 02:35:54 AM »

Hi Molly

Congratulations on getting this gun, I was in the mindset that it was a well done contemporary but I have also changed my mind after viewing the latest pictures. The barrel may have been freshed out and the crown added by a shooter. I agree that all the old barrels I have seen did not use a crown. I don't know why barrels were not crowned because crowning aides in loading and helps with accuracy, but they were normally not crowned. But I do not think that takes anything away from this nice rifle, if anything it just adds a little more to its history. Enjoy it and I hope to get to see it some day.

Jim

Molly · « **Reply #45 on:** November 30, 2022, 03:33:23 AM »

Thanks to all for the comments. Since the last post I have shared photos and info with a few more big dogs in the world of southern rifles and we are please to find the firm opinion of those few is that we have an original rifle, probably made as early as 1860 but very well as late as 1880 to even 1900. As the story goes the mountain men of the area to the north of Chattanooga was active in making their guns mostly for shooting matches. Never a style that was very popular among collectors...to which I responded that there are only so many Beans, Bulls, Lawings, etc. and the time of the Soddy is here!

Molly

jruff5585 · « **Reply #46 on:** December 01, 2022, 12:07:29 PM »

yes it is contemporary sort of. it won a national shooting championship 20 years ago or so. And how do I know this? I thought about bidding on it last week, this was part of the description. Nice rifle. I didn't bid because I have my eye on an EX. GEORGE NEUMANN Club butt Fowler.

jruff5585 · « **Reply #47 on:** December 01, 2022, 12:19:41 PM »

you owe me. I saved you some money by not bidding LOL

Molly · « **Reply #48 on:** December 01, 2022, 03:29:33 PM »

Nothing in the item description (below) as you report. "2nd quarter of the 19th century" that would be 1826 to 1850. Not "sort of contemporary" by any stretch

This is the item description:

RIFLE, approximately .45 caliber, figured cherry fullstock with carved cheek rest, rifled octagonal barrel, double set trigger, unmarked lockplate, period ramrod. Second quarter 19th century. 58 1/2" LOA, 42 1/2" barrel.
Provenance: From the collection of Williston and Josephine Cofer, Alexandria, VA.
Condition
Request Condition Report
Very good condition, stock with excellent color, light corrosion to barrel.
Other lots in this auction

But there are other auction platforms which pick up and provide buyers the opportunity to bid. If another platform added information which was not provided by the auction that had the rifle, that seems to be inappropriate. At the same time, if Evans had this information and failed to make it known, that too would seem inappropriate. Whatever the case may be it's a great little rifle and the controversy about contemporary/original only adds to the mystic...and appeal, at least it does at this price. If it sold for many times the price it may not be so appealing. And if it actually "won" a national competition, that's a bonus. HOWEVER I don't view the rifle as the winner, it was the shooter.

rich pierce · « **Reply #49 on:** December 01, 2022, 06:24:27 PM »

As I noted early in this thread, the form of the rifling and crown were dead giveaways that it had been rifled post 1900. The narrow land/wide groove style was not seen before 1900 and maybe much later, like 1930s. If it had been “freshed” it would retain the same form. What Bobby Hoyt does is not “freshing”. He drills out the old rifling, reams the barrel, and rifles the larger caliber bore to a modern style of rifling with lands no wider than grooves.

News:

Author Topic: Opinions welcomed updated FINAL, well, not really. (Read 5194 times)