Author Topic: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?  (Read 1552 times)

Offline Tanselman

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Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« on: November 30, 2022, 06:31:05 AM »
This little full-stocked rifle came from a small farm auction in southern Indiana. The odd looking patchbox was intriguing, and I thought it might be "southern," such as Georgia or Alabama. The rusted barrel, after a little rubbing, shows "P. W. Keith" engraved in script. A silver star decorates the oval cheekpiece, and a brass "S" shaped inlay behind the cheek has the initials "R D"... probably those of gun's original owner. According to descendants the gun had been in the old farmhouse attic for at least four generations, but there was no knowledge of where the gun was made... just presumed to be from the general area [Rush County] near the old farm homestead. But the gun doesn't look "Indiana" to me [not clunky enough], and the stock architecture is quite good despite stock wood being poorly curled/faded maple. It's in original percussion with full 40-3/4" original length barrel, .36 bore, spring open/close box lid, and probably dates circa 1840, partly based on lock plate with oval [rather than round] tail.

A unique detail is the "open" area at the rear of each patchbox side leaf, which is rare and makes it hard to place the gun at this time. Also note the side facings are pointed on the front end, usually a "southern" detail. Any ides on this rifle would be appreciated.

The engraved name on the barrel hasn't been cleaned up any more, but it is "P. W. Keith." I cannot find the name in any reference book, despite there being a number of "Keith" gunsmiths in different states, but no match on first initials. The first initial looks a lot like a "J" but in good light is a fancy "P." Please offer your thoughts on where this rifle might have been made, and hopefully we'll find the gunsmith as a relative of one of the known "Keith" gunsmiths.

Shelby Gallien
























« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 10:41:07 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2022, 10:34:20 PM »
The above post has been cleaned up with upgraded images of the rifle, so hopefully a few more details will be visible, plus the stock architecture can be seen in the full-length view. The lack of comments so far seems to support my initial thoughts about the rifle... probably a southern gun by an obscure maker that hasn't been located and/or documented yet. But now we have an example of his work, and his initials and last name, so hopefully someone can make a connection.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 10:44:40 PM by Tanselman »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2022, 10:05:44 PM »

Philip W Keith
in the 1850 United States Federal Census

View1850 United States Federal Census
 
 
Detail Source
Name:   Philip W Keith
Gender:   Male
Race:   White
Age:   22
Birth Year:   abt 1828
Birthplace:   Ohio
Home in 1850:   Jackson, Morgan, Ohio, USA
Occupation:   Gunsmith
Industry:   Miscellaneous Repair Services
Real Estate:   450
Line Number:   31
Dwelling Number:   849
Family Number:   858
Inferred Father:   
Peter Keith
Inferred Mother:   
Mary Keith

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2022, 10:16:42 PM »
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/30824917/philipp-wesley-keith?_gl=1*dxljk0*_ga*NTI2Nzk5ODIzLjE2Njk1NTcwMjM.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY3MDE4MDQ1Ny42LjEuMTY3MDE4MTMyNy41OC4wLjA.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2022, 11:37:21 PM »
 I think the patchbox looks like it was recycled from another gun. The lock is obviously from another gun. I suspect this gun was built from several broken guns.

Hungry Horse

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2022, 12:24:49 AM »
To AVLRC - thank you for posting the 1850 Ohio census information. I saw Phillip Wesley Keith in a Google search... only possible Keith I could find... with listing of "mechanic" similar to your posting. But I could not find an 1850 Ohio census on-line that I could get into for free... seems like all the listings require some type of sign-up membership before I can access actual census data. I am fortunate that the superb Genealogy Dept. at the Allen County Ft. Wayne Public Library is only a short distance away, and I will verify his name and background info this week. You have given me a great start with the 1850 reference to "gunsmith," I think this is our man, and I appreciate your 1850 census post... with him located in the county of Morgan when I thought he was probably in Noble County where his parents were.
                                      **************************************************

As to originality of the rifle, it is a good quality, all original rifle with its original percussion lock. Unfortunately, it was left in an open attic for over 100 years and got "weather beaten" to some extent, and the stock broken in multiple areas for being thrown around and bumped into stuff over those years... I'd guess as more and more "old junk" was piled into the old family home's attic. It "came out" with several other old "attic condition" black powder guns at the estate sale, all in about the same weathered condition.

I initially wondered about possible reuse of an older patchbox due to the odd rear shape of the side leaves, i.e. the cut-out areas. I've had the gun since last Tuesday, and I am convinced it is an original box, not recycled, for these reasons:

1) Box has good length, and lid has neatly engraved line to match up with edge line of butt plate, making them look like they go together.

3) The short ends of the side facings that touch the butt plate are both well shaped and fit snuggly against the butt plate curvature. Often on a recycled box, the butt plate fit is slightly off.

2) The engraving was done on the box in its current configuration, or shape, as indicated by the "wriggle" engraved borders that don't "run off" the box in the "odd" spots, but rather match the box's current profile.

3) An earlier box would probably have used screws to attach the side leaves, and there are no indications of old screw holes. If an earlier box had pinned/nailed side leaves as they are currently attached, it would have been virtually impossible to remove so many small nails without doing some damage, somewhere, to some of the nail holes. Yet all current nails and nail holes are clean and tight, indicating 1st generation, i.e. original, work, at least to my eyes.

It's just an odd-looking patchbox on an otherwise decent gun that's gotten a little beat up during its "retired" years the last century, and that's the reason for this post, to find out who might have made such a gun. When we find him [as we probably have], we can start making comparisons to other guns made in the area by his competitors to see if common details can be found to help support Phillip Wesley Keith as the maker. I have to admit, the triggers have the "slightly clunky" look of triggers in many 1840s-1850s Ohio rifles. I now think my first dating effort was too early. Phillip Wesley Keith reached 21 years old in 1848 and married in 1851... so VERY good chance the gun dates to the 1850s.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 06:05:03 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2022, 02:04:51 AM »
You are welcome.
1860 Jackson, Noble, occupation as a Miller
1870 Jackson, Noble, Miller
1880 Jefferson, Noble , Oil Operator

Civil War

Name:   Phillip W Keith
Birth Year:   abt 1828
Place of Birth:   Ohio
Age on 1 July 1863:   35
Race:   White
Residence:   Jackson, Ohio
Congressional District:   16th
Class:   2



Postmaster
Name:   Philip W Keith
Post Office Location:   Keiths, Noble, Ohio
Appointment Date:   22 Sep 1850
Volume Number:   25a
Volume Year Range:   1857-1873


« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 02:09:11 AM by Avlrc »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2022, 03:54:21 AM »
Another "odd" patchbox similar to the one on the P. W. Keith" rifle has been found by southeastern Ohio rifle-maker and relative Peter Kane/Cain of Hocking County. Hocking County is just west of Morgan County where Phillip W. Keith first lived. Morgan County later spun off the area where Keith lived [along with small areas from a couple other bordering counties] to create Noble County, Ohio, in 1851, where Phillip Wesley remained for the rest of his life. The Keith/Cain genealogy is incomplete and mixed up at this time, at least for the quick internet work I did, but the Kane rifle's patchbox is unmistakably similar to the one posted earlier. Several better-quality, later rifles are also documented by Findlay C. Keith of Noble County, Ohio, apparently a nephew of Phillip Keith. The illustration of the more recently found "odd" patchbox by Peter Kane is from Jim Whisker's "Ohio Long Rifles - Vol. II" on page 187.

Shelby Gallien



« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 03:57:42 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2022, 08:01:23 PM »
Strange patchbox, reminds me of a pelt. 

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2022, 11:57:23 PM »
Or a flat, tailless squirrel in the middle of the road! I "kinda'" had the same idea with the four small legs coming off the body.

It's one of the least attractive patchboxes [well, plain ugly] I've ever seen, and the engraving doesn't help it much. But it is distinctive, and that is probably what they were striving for, so it identified the rifle and its owner as being from southeastern Ohio in that tri-county area of Hocking, Morgan, and Noble Counties. I'm just glad I collect primarily out of Kentucky, where the patchboxes look good. Now I have to find a nearsighted [well, almost blind] southeastern Ohio collector who thinks these guns actually look appealing and wants one! And to think I initially thought it might be a rare southern gun with a previously unknown maker and patchbox.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 12:04:02 AM by Tanselman »

Offline GrizG

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Re: Unknown Patchbox on a Full-Stocked Rifle - Where Was It Made?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2022, 12:34:03 AM »
Strange patchbox, reminds me of a pelt.
I can see that... Also, when rotated 90° counterclockwise, it looks like a ghost with the two screws on the lid being eyes... Any aberrations reported in that area in the period? ;)