Trigger guards on Indian trade guns

[ntqlvr1948]

What is the purpose of the large trigger guards on Indian trade guns? I know Indians don't have fat fingers.

[Rajin cajun]

Assimilate the pulling of the bow string , is the consensus of opinions. That large guard feature will be found on what we call the Northwest trade gun. The earlier French and English trade Fusil will not have that feature. Trade guns are an interesting category of collecting, and are important to the formation of our nation. The early French traders were trading firearms in Louisiana to Indians in the late 1600’s !

Bob

[Cory Joe Stewart]

These guns were as mass produced as something could be in the 18th and early 19th century.  I think the large guard is the product of a speedy process.  Mainly, lay a guard over the horn of an anvil and it fits. 

Cory Joe

[mr. no gold]

Another possibility is to facilitate use of the arm in bitter cold winter conditions when the hunter was wearing mittens or gloves. Hard to pull a trigger contained within a small guard when you have stiff fingers, it seems to me. A bigger guard perhaps made it bit easier.
Dick

[Rajin cajun]

These guns were as mass produced as something could be in the 18th and early 19th century.  I think the large guard is the product of a speedy process.  Mainly, lay a guard over the horn of an anvil and it fits. 

Cory Joe

Cory, there were a large number of makers , English, Belgium, and American and they all had large guards. The guards were made that way Intentionally , not as a result of a speedy process. The Native American were noted on trade records on what they wanted on their weapons.

Bob

[Kevin]

Greetings Everyone,

One response to a parallel 2019 thread cited the use of two fingers on the trigger during cold temperatures.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53459.msg534667#msg534667

Kevin

[ntqlvr1948]

 I agree with the two fingers on the trigger theory....that makes sense

[Hungry Horse]

Yeh,but I doubt cold temperatures had as much to do with it as accommodating a longer trigger to make it easier to pull the trigger. You know they didn’t tune the locks, so I suspect you had to have a good hot mustard plaster on your butt to pull the trigger on one of these.

Hungry Horse

[backsplash75]

August 24, 1740

"to have the guard larger, it being usual to draw the trigger with two fingers which our guns will not admit of"

TRADE GUNS OF THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY 1670-1970, p.73-74 by S. James Gooding {2003}

[cshirsch]

Another possibility is to facilitate use of the arm in bitter cold winter conditions when the hunter was wearing mittens or gloves. Hard to pull a trigger contained within a small guard when you have stiff fingers, it seems to me. A bigger guard perhaps made it bit easier.
Dick

BINGO!

[jruff5585]

Nope not for mittens or easier to pull. Here you go, right from Hudson's Bay Company records

 They had an oversize trigger guard, a flat brass butt plate attached with nails, and a side plate of a coiled sea serpent. It was long thought that the extra-large trigger guard was made to accommodate a gloved hand. But recent inspection of original documents from the Hudson’s Bay Company reveals a request sent to gunmakers in England in 1740 stating the Indians demanded large trigger guards because they liked to use the first two fingers of the hand to pull the trigger. Apparently that grip was more stable when firing from horseback than just the index finger.

[Hudnut]

I don't know that in 1740 there were all that many Indians firing from horseback...
The two finger preference may have been just that - a preference.  Even then, how widespread was this preference?  Trade guns were distributed over a wide swath of North America.
I have seen many Inuit in the Eastern Arctic using the middle finger, rather than the index finger, to fire their rifles.
Whatever the reason, the fact that the large trigger guard was a standard for over a century would indicate it was preferred.

[oldtravler61]

  Been doing research on this and if you read as other's have stated. The large bow on the trigger guard was preferred. One main reason is that the Natives used two fingers to draw their bows and so it held over to when they were introduced to firearms. Old habit and hard to change over. They also requested guns with the serpent side plate on them for spiritual reasons.
  The trade guns were made well into the 1870s. Most had barrels of 30 to 36 inches according to actual records of the time. Very practical firearm.

[Rajin cajun]

Here it is as stated in the records as the large guard was by choice as quoted from records of the Hudson Bay Company. From T. M. Hamilton’s,  Colonial Frontier Guns page 11.





Bob

[oldtravler61]

  Their is other documentation from the the Western tribes as well. All very interesting reading.

[jruff5585]

Native American's started using horses in 1630, so 110 years later it was wide spread.
also some good reading
https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1966-B14-Indian-Trade-Guns.pdf

[elkhart]

Some of the Natives would use a pinch grip on their arrow draw. The bulbous nock would be pinched between the thumb and index finger, then pulled back to mid-chest. Native American archery techniques varied due to materials and usage.

Probably using two fingers because the guns had a heavy trigger pull. Dunno.

[RAT]

This is also my understanding about North American arrow draw technique... That they pinched the arrow rather than drawing the sting with 3 fingers.

The Northwest Trade Gun evolved over a period of time. This time being short considering the very long period of use. This leads me to 2 thoughts...

1. During a pretty long period the locks didn't have internal bridals. Nor did they have half cock notches. The full cock notch was fairly large. These factors lead to a lot of drag and a heavy trigger pull. I believe this is the main reason for the "2 finger" pull.

2. We can't discount the fact that the NW gun evolved for use in the arctic /sub arctic. Yes... it was used throughout North America, but it first evolved when traded from posts around Hudson's Bay. I think use with mittens can't be so easily discounted.

I'll have to go back to Gooding to see what is written there.

[Rajin cajun]

Mittens used by the natives covered the whole hand, they were not cut for each individual finger. They would not have been able to enter into the large trigger guard ! The trade guns made for seal hunting were made without trigger guards, they were made that way so they could be fired while wearing mittens.
 Bob