Author Topic: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?  (Read 1573 times)

Offline Tanselman

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I recently purchased a southern full-stocked rifle somewhat like a Tennessee rifle, but probably from Georgia, that is beat up but still all there. It has a silver barrel plate signed "J VANN" in large block letters. The first letter is worn and could be an "I" or a "J" but they were used interchangeably at times. The gun is large, about 10-1/2 lbs., barrel is swamped, uncut 48-1/4" long, with large .50 cal. bore and 7 groove rifling. Mountings are iron and well-made, with an attractive guard with exceptionally long rear extension. The guard's rear spur is flattened out into a wide, very thin, "spoon shaped" rear spur, and not the normal thin TN spur. A vent pick hole is just behind the rear extension, goes 1-1/8" deep into the toe and suggests this is a late, single bolt southern flintlock now converted to percussion. Stocking, despite a poor modern varnish finish and some terrible modern repairs and "restoration," is very good with a clean triangular butt and extended toe, and single line lower butt and forestock molding lines that retain the original termination behind the muzzle cap.

The important detail is the silver barrel plate with the name "J VANN" in block letters. Jim Whisker in his softbound Tennessee book recognized James Vann as a gunsmith in the late 1790s/early 1800s in TN and GA. He was half Cherokee with Scots father and Cherokee mother, and became a powerful and very wealthy chief in the Cherokee nation, owning a large plantation and many slaves, in addition to other holdings. His favorite son, Joseph, may have worked as a gunsmith early in life, but it has not been documented. My opinion is that this rifle was either made by Joseph Vann when a young adult, or owned by him in his early adult years, before he became heavily involved in business dealings, Cherokee leadership, and involvement in the eventual removal of the Cherokees from Georgia. While the rifle is not spectacular, if it weren't damaged with poor repair and restoration attempts, it would be a good quality southern rifle, well above average and capable of handling the largest game around. One fascinating detail is the small, rectangular silver inlay in the forward section of the barrel, about halfway between the rear sight and the muzzle. It is engraved with a star(?) pattern. I have not seen this detail on any rifle before... perhaps suggesting it is a better-quality rifle for a significant owner... or maybe a Cherokee symbol???

I'd like to get opinions on the rifle, its barrel signature, and any thoughts about it you might have.

Shelby Gallien














Now would you like to see the barrel signature?




« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 09:21:13 PM by Tanselman »

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chief James Vann?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2023, 05:37:44 AM »
Awesome find.  I am totally ignorant as to Cherokee symbols, but the image does have an Indian look to it. Congratulations & thanks for sharing.

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chief James Vann?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2023, 07:31:42 AM »
 :o :o... Nice rifle,.. do my old eyes deceive me, or is there the letter "T" at the far right of the silver barrel plate,..? ... CCF

Offline bama

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chief James Vann?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2023, 04:29:35 PM »
Shelby, this may be a little bit of a stretch but when I first looked at the symbol I thought that is the Cherokee symbol for the “Tree of Life”.  It may or may not be but that was my first thought. Nice rifle.
Jim Parker

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Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chief James Vann?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2023, 05:16:09 PM »
Shelby, I think Jim (Bama) is correct. I once owned a horn that was purchased off the Cherokee reservation in North Carolina by Earl Lanning and Jim Dresslar that was carved with that symbol. They called it the tree of life .
Nice rifle, thanks for sharing.

Bob
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Offline AZshot

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2023, 10:25:55 PM »
That is a nice one.  I agree it's unusual feature includes the long trigger guard rear mounting foot. I don't think I've seen one that long.
How long is the tang?  It seems to go to the comb, does it have a dolls head?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 10:29:20 PM by AZshot »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2023, 10:36:35 PM »
In response to questions, the tang is 6" long with a flat end that's located at the base of the comb's nose. I am posting new pictures of both the barrel signature [yes, there is a letter or number over on the right side] and the small "Tree of Life" barrel inlay rotated so it looks more like a tree. I think there is a good possibility the small inlay does represent the Cherokee's Tree of Life, which seems appropriate since the rifle was probably made about the time the Trail of Tears began to become a reality for the Cherokee.

Shelby Gallien





« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 05:07:21 AM by Tanselman »

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2023, 10:46:11 PM »
Not too likely that this piece was owned/made by James Vann since he died in 1809 by an unknown hand. His son, Joseph, or other relative could have made, or owned it. Possible too that the barrel is a reuse from an older rifle and that would comport with the idea that it is tied to Chief Vann. As to the symbol, the Crider rifle out of the Weiss Auction has this same symbol engraved ins several places on the brass PB. The major symbol of the Cherokee is a seven pointed star representing the seven clans and the 'tree' does not seem to show up as a standard icon. You might consider contacting the Cherokee Tribal Cultural Center, (in Georgia) about the gun. They may have some information about it. Nice rifle; thank you for showing it.
Dick

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2023, 05:19:21 AM »
Dick, 

I looked your rifle over rather closely when at auction and thought it was an interesting "Crider" rifle and worth acquiring, but I don't remember the small details on the patchbox lid that are similar to the one on the above rifle's barrel. Would you mind posting a picture of your patchbox lid that shows those details to refresh my memory, and so I/we can see the similarities? 

Thanks, Shelby

Offline Shopdog

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2023, 05:45:28 PM »
That's a fantastic find!  The silver motif is likely the Tree of Life symbol.  The Cherokee and Creek have a long history of silver working and engraving but that is the first time I've seen it applied to a firearm.  I'm sure there are more examples and if anyone has seen them please let me know. 
Joe Davis
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Offline JTR

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2023, 02:02:25 AM »
Here is Dicks Crider rifle with some Cherokee symbols.






« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 06:40:43 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline BradBrownBess

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2023, 03:11:45 AM »
https://www.nps.gov/places/chief-vann-house.htm

Been many times - very, very friendly and knowledgeable people there. They may be able to assist or point you in the right direction.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Georgia Gunsmith or Owner, Cherokee Chiefs James/Joseph Vann?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2023, 07:50:48 AM »
Thank you for posting the small Cherokee details found on Dick's rifle, which are very similar. It makes me want to rethink the presumed attribution of the "Jacob Crider" rifles out there. Now I wonder if the signed "J * C * Fecit * 1809" rifle and this one were made farther south of the presumed Rowan Co. NC with its presumed maker Thomas Crider, and they were actually made somewhere within the Cherokee nation by an as yet unidentified gunsmith with the initials "J C".

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 07:59:54 AM by Tanselman »