J&S Hawken rifle

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

So I have been around this rifle all my life. My Grandmother who was born and raised on a ranch in Northern New Mexico said it was her grandfathers, which he fought Indians with while settling the town of Tererro, NM. As I got older my Grandmother passed it on to my mother who has now passed it on to me. I know what a Hawken rifle is, but would like some help with any info anyone on here could provide me with such as approx date of manufacture, model, value, etc. I would also be interested in restoration advice as well. Thanks in advance and look forward to hearing from you guys.

[rich pierce]

It’s just barely possible that J&S Hawken used a back action lock but the architecture looks right as does the patchbox. The guard is what would be seen on their local small caliber rifles which are of high value but not as high as their bigger bore going West rifles with scroll guard. The tang and 2 keys are like they’re going West rifles. Fascinating gun. I’ll PM you about value.

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

Thanks Rich I guessing the caliber is .54? My .50 sabots would fall through it if I dropped them down the barrel.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Very nice box!

[smylee grouch]

If it's an J & S Hawken it would have been made before Jakes death during the Collora epidemic in St. Louis. 1849 IIRC I would not do any restoration work to it but thats just me. You might be reducing the value of it by doing so. 

[Bob Roller]

YEARS ago in Michigan a fire destroyed a big gun collection and a Hawken with a back action lock was supposedly one of the ones lost.
This IS an unusual gun but I would say it's authentic until PROVEN not.

*Edited to remove modern gun discussion*

Your rifle is not the conventional style we associate with Jake and Sam but I would bet it's a real one *Edited to meet ALR rules*
Bob Roller 

[Bob Roller]

If it's an J & S Hawken it would have been made before Jakes death during the Collora epidemic in St. Louis. 1849 IIRC I would not do any restoration work to it but thats just me. You might be reducing the value of it by doing so. 

1849 was the date and to get rid of the Cholera they burned the town down and rebuilt without all the wood structures to help stop the spread of this plague.I agree with Grouch,no restoration and none appears to be needed.
The above info about the fire was told to me by the late T.K.Dawson who made superb Hawken copies in the late 1960"s before anyone else even tried.
Bob Roller

[RAT]

I just sent you a private message with contacts that can help give you more information. Can you post photos of the percussion bolster and the full length of the tang? I'd also be interested in close up photos of the patchbox. Both with the box closed, and with it open so we can see the release mechanism. There are 2 Hawken rifles that I'm aware of with single set triggers. Does your rifle have a simple single trigger... or is it a set trigger? A photo of the cheekpiece would also be helpful. The middle ramrod pipe appears to have a sling attachment. A better photo of that would be great.

I'd bet money it's an 1840's gun. Nothing about it indicates it was made earlier than that. As already stated, it would have been made before Jacob's death in 1849. The style of percussion bolster really helps here. I'd also like to get a more complete family history. Provenance is really helpful. You can private message me if you prefer.

[Daniel Coats]

I'm wondering how old that barrel stamp is. Could it have been done later to enhance the value?

[Bob Roller]

I'm wondering how old that barrel stamp is. Could it have been done later to enhance the value?

The name looks very neat as if struck with a stencil that was very uniform and not with individual letters.
 Bob Roller

[RAT]

Another possibility is that it's a period restock using a Hawken barrel from a previous rifle. However... to me... there are some Hawken-like features here. Some were used by others during the period... so maybe Hawken... maybe not... They are...

1. The lock bolt washer with recessed bolt head
2. The shape of the forestock and how it terminates into the endcap
3. The entry pipe being held with 2 pins... some Hawken rifles had this... most didn't
4. The patchbox has that odd-ball Hawken look to it

Almost all of the Hawken rifles in my photo files have the barrel keys entering from the left side of the forend. In other words, the heads are on the left side. "Almost"... not all. On this rifle they enter from the lock (right) side. The Hawken brothers seem to have used heavier keys. It might be helpful if we could get key dimensions (body width and thickness along with head dimensions).

I think some views of the patchbox release and kick-open spring would help. The Hawken brothers used some... not so successful... patchbox mechanisms. This was a conversation I had with Louie Parker via email a couple of years ago. We talked about the number of times we've seen rifles where the patchbox lid had been pried open because the mechanism failed.

[RAT]

Also... Make sure you double check to see if it's loaded. You'd be amazed at the number of old rifles that still have a charge down the barrel.

If it's an original J & S Hawken... please don't do any restoration or cleaning. Also... don't be tempted to shoot it. It's your rifle, so it's your decision, just be aware that it could decrease it's value. Original Hawken rifles... especially early one's... are more valuable as collector rifles rather than as shooters.

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

Hope these help. Also in the lock plate engraving there appears to be the name Rasmore & Son maybe? on it. My grandmother’s Maiden name was Rivera. Her father was Encarnacion 1896-1976 I think I’d have to check. His father was Cristino (Original owner) 1843-1918 who settler the mining town of Tererro, NM in 1878 and his father was Jose Luis Ribera. Who lived in the town of Pecos, NM and is buried at the old church there which is about 25 min south east of Tererro. There are several good books about my family ‘The First Pioneers of the Upper Most Pecos’, ‘Campfires of a Naturalist’, and ‘Beatty’s Cabin’. I included some excerpts and a pic of the dugout the way it looks now from the first book mentioned. I also still have a/the bear trap too.























 

[Daniel Coats]

Yeah Bob I get it that the letters are stamped as a set. I was poking at the patina in the letters under magnification. Are the letters as old as the surface of the barrel? I know of at least one supposed original Hawken that had been helped out with a new barrel stamp.

[RAT]

The percussion bolster looks correct (and pretty typical) for a Hawken rifle of the mid 1840's-1850's period. Keep in mind that the Hawken brothers didn't produce these parts. Rifles made in other parts of the country used identical parts. The tang shape says 1840's to me. My guess is that this rifle was made in the late 1840's.

The patchbox release wasn't what I was expecting. It looks like a cam-over style. What I thought was a button head for the release is actually just a finger tab for lifting the lid. It looks like the spring is "T" shaped and riveted to the underside of the patchbox surround. That, to me, is Hawken-like as per my past conversations with Louie.

Is that a barrel key escutcheon sitting in the patchbox? Does it look like it would fit the current forestock?

Daniel... I think I know the rifle you are referring to (that is over-stamped). If it's the one I think it is... that rifle is at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody WY. I examined that rifle in person. I am 100% positive that rifle is an original Jacob Fordney trade rifle. The rifle displays peening to remove Fordney's stamp. It was then over-stamped with the J & S Hawken stamp. There are 2 possibilities for that rifle:

1. The Fordney rifle was converted from flint to percussion during the period at the shop of J & S Hawken, and was over-stamped at that time.
2. Someone in the 20th century took an original Fordney rifle and converted it to percussion and changed the stamp to make people believe it was an early flint Hawken rifle.

A very knowledgeable friend of mine described a "tell" with Hawken stamps from known forgeries. Unfortunately, I haven't seen an actual forgery to be able to see the difference for myself. Maybe in the future I'll be experienced enough to tell the difference by sight.

Regarding the rifle posted here...
I don't see anything that says it's NOT a Hawken. I like it! Once again we're seeing a rifle from the pre-1850's period of Hawken production that shows variety. It's refreshing to see stuff that doesn't look like the typical 1860's rifles that everyone identifies as a typical Hawken rifle. The family history seems consistent with a rifle from this period. Your relative (the original owner) could have purchased this new or used. It seems it was probably already several years old before he acquired it. You really need to have an expert examine the rifle in person to be 100% sure and to get a value.

One thing I've always wanted to do was remove the buttplates on these rifles. Rifles by other makers will sometimes have notes written on the wood under the buttplate. I always wondered if Hawken rifles had something under the buttplates. Boy... could we all learn something from that!

[RAT]

The hammer looks to be a crude hand-made replacement. The lock would be "R. Ashmore & Son". as per Mtn Meek from a previous thread...

Howard Blackmore lists Richard Ashmore as "Gunlock maker, Wednesbury, Staffordshire, 1827-55."

It's a typical English import lock of the back action type.

Regarding the patchbox...
It looks like a casting. It was originally made larger, and was shortened to fit this rifle. As cast, it would have probably been intended to be inlet in the center of the buttstock with wood surrounding it. In other words, it wouldn't have been cut to touch the buttplate. It's large enough that I would call it a patchbox and not a capbox.

I'm really digg'n this rifle!

[rich pierce]

I’m taking it at face value that the rifle has been in the family and is not for sale now or in the future, so if we take that position, it hasn’t been re-worked anywhere.

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

RAT, thanks so much for the info. Yes, that is one of the barrel key escutcheons in the patch box and it does match the others on the rifle. It has been in there for my entire life (well since 8 I know). What are your thoughts on the lock plate engraving? And Rich you are correct, I now interest of ever selling the rifle. I really just want to honor my ancestors and preserve it as best I can without hurting it. I was told my great great grandfather had many rifles but after his son passed I was told the family took them all and they scattered to the wind. My Grandmother worked in Albuquerque, NM where my Grandfather was stationed while he was in the Air Force. They met, got married and moved back east to TN. My Grandmother went back to care for her mother before her death and talked her close cousin who had this one into letting her have it bc she didn’t have anything from her father. Funny now bc she was deeded the ranch by her mother before she passed bc she came to care for her. Funny how things work out.

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

Rich also. I don’t know if it has been reworked. I know my Grandmother had a gunsmith in TN “make” a ramrod for it as the original was missing. And the stock was cracked so I don’t know what else was done other than she wasn’t pleased with what was done or what she paid for I should say. The ramrod appears to be just a wooden dowel.

[Daniel Coats]

My thoughts on barrel keys entering from the left are that it was intended to be the same way you mounted a horse, from the left.

I think overall you have a great family heirloom and quite possibly an original Hawken. Still curious about the barrel stamp patina?

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

Dan, thank you. I really don’t know and so that’s why I reached out to you guys on here. The extent of my Hawken rifle knowledge started with Kit Carson and ended with Robert Redford lol. I do however think it’s entirely plausible for frontiers men to repurpose locks, barrels and other mechanisms when there was a need.

[Tanselman]

With the "right side/left side" barrel key issue, couldn't it simply be that the forestock's oval inlays/escutcheons were lost on the left side, so someone switched the keys to the right side so they still seated against a protective wedge inlay, rather than buggering up the bare wood on the left side?

Shelby Gallien

[RAT]

It looks like the escutcheons currently installed might be silver. The one in the box looks like it might be brass. IF that's the case... they could have been changed out for that reason. The key direction might have been changed at that time as well. The keys should be pinned in place via a slot in the center of each key. All you need to do is remove the barrel from the stock and look for the pins holding the keys in place. If you see holes (for the pins) on both sides, that's proof of them being switched.

If you can find out the name of the TN gunsmith that did the recent work (1990's being recent), see if you can get in contact with him. Ask him to document in writing exactly what he did. Keep that with the rifle to help document it's history.

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

RAT, coincidentally I do know where the gunsmith is bc he lived near my grandmother. It was a father son business. The father has since passed but the son is still there. I will go to see him and ask him for documentation.

[JTR]

You might consider contacting the Hawken Shop;

The Hawken Shop
Original Hawken Rifles
P.O. Box 593
Oak Harbor, Washington
(360) 679-4657
FAX (360) 675-1114
1-800-450-7111
E-Mail greg@thehawkenshop.com

They have a large collections of original Hawkens, and could probably help with some of your questions.