Author Topic: J&S Hawken rifle  (Read 6345 times)

Offline Jim Curlee

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2023, 07:38:25 PM »
Very cool piece of history.
I like all the home-brewed parts.

Jim

Offline Dphariss

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2023, 08:59:45 PM »
OK there are some relevant and irrelevant variations here. Noting I do not have the rifle in hand.
Barrel looks pure Hawken. And since the rifle has provenance I doubt its been restamped.
The forend is very “Hawken”. Silver was not uncommon on the J&S rifles.
The brass BP and TG are a non-issue. But the buttplate has flats on the top which would be IMO a little off for a Hawken. But if it came down the river like that I cannot imagine it not being used OR if it was from a wrecked rifle someone traded in (who can say?).  It should be round on top at this period I think. The TG is a lot like one on a heavy FS S Hawken in the Cody Museum. And there is a brass mounted scroll guard typical 1/2 stock “Rocky Mountain” rifle at Cody that is ALL brass mounted right down to the late design key escutcheons. So iron mounted is not set in stone.
Single trigger is a non-issue. Hawken “Rocky Mountain” rifles were made with single triggers.
Barrel, breech, standing breech all Hawken. OR much like what would have been used and it looks to be at least very late 1830s to 1840s to me.  The breech is not the latest design. But its not mid-1830s either by the standing breech design. And there is a 1/2 stock in Cody with the later breech and the standing breech looks like that on what I am pretty sure is a mid-1830s rifle and the buttplate appears to be one of the cast versions.  Remembering that they came, most likely, from Birmingham, just like the lock.
Back action lock is an oddity. Still it would take a lot less time to shape this rifle than it would the typical rifle with lock panels and also unless them came as a set fitting the lock to the breech takes time as well. The rifle would probably have saved 1/2 a day at least compared to a “standard” lock. But the wrist is weaker.
I do not like the way the comb is shaped where it blends to the wrist. But that big fullstock S hawken is a little big here as well just not that bad. And I am 100% SURE that this long heavy brass mounted S. Hawken “Kentucky” is pure Hawken. It has a cheekpiece detail that is identical to a FS S Hawken “Rocky Mountain Rifle” that we also had out of the case and hands on.
Patch box is just there it is what it is.
THEN…
In the 1840s when the Oregon and California migrations were running it was, according to a statement attributed to Sam, that they simply could not make enough guns at the time. Demand outstripped their capability. So they very well may not have been able to get anything but back action locks at some point or at least not enough “standard” locks. Or other classic “Hawken” parts. Remember that their supplies were coming down the Ohio by boat.
Looks like the hammer broke and was replaced by the local blacksmith.
Now it COULD be a restock. I still think the buttstock is a little crude. But there are some Hawkens that are not as carefully shaped as we might expect, cheekpieces come to mind.
Then the sling mount on the rod pipe but none on the stock. This concerns me a little. The Hawken shop would have put one on the stock I would think. But???  Did the pipe or pipe/rib assembly COME that way? Was it a salvage part? By the 1840s how much were they making in shop? I doubt they ever made the barrels other than reaming and rifling them. The breeches? Of course not. Locks were all bought from one supplier or another. We know they were buying from Tryon.

But then we have the CA Gold Rush/ Oregon migration thing so maybe things were rushed a little.

Keys in from the wrong side? Would have to see the barrel and stock separated. How many apprentices did Jake and Sam have in the shop? Did the customer want this or some later owner move them?

The fullstocked  converted rifle that came from Cooper’s Landing, AK. At least thats where is was when it appeared in Baird’s book… As RAT has stated. Its not a Hawken. But I do not believe the marking is entirely spurious either. I think the barrel was rebreeched and probably freshed by the Hawken Shop and it probably was a good shooter and they stamped it. IIRC this is a pretty heavy rifle and may have been winning matches as a FL when it was converted. Probably post 1840. If this was the case and it was owned by someone that shot really well, they may well have put their name on it for advertising. They would not want people looking at a match winning rifle they reworked and ordering a Leman.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2023, 09:06:23 PM »
Looking at the photos again. I don’t think the comb/buttstock is as clunky as some original Hawkens I have examined so other than the buttplate being a little odd I can’t see much to make me think it was anything but somewhat odd J&S Hawken.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2023, 10:21:49 PM »
It is my observation and hope that as rifles such as this one surface, some day perhaps an original intact flint Hawken will also come to light.  It's been fun to study this rifle's pictures...thanks to the owner for the story and presentation.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline bbennet2@hotmail.com

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2023, 11:18:51 PM »
WOW… The amount of knowledge from you gentlemen in amazing. Dphariss, I’m attaching a pic of the underneath of the butt stock and there is a hole. Could it be where the sling rivet might have been at one time? Again thank you all for all the information and GREAT conversation. Please anyone else that can add anything else please feel free to add on. So, would it be reasonable to call this a variant of  their Rocky Mountain Rifle?

Offline bbennet2@hotmail.com

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2023, 11:20:36 PM »
Forgot the pic of the butt stock.


Offline RAT

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2023, 11:59:04 PM »
Given the large caliber... I would say it is. But as Dan has said, we haven't seen it in person. We're only going by photos.

I would also be cautious using the term "variant". That makes it sound like it's a special one-off from a standard production line product. There was no production line as we think of it today. Everything made during that period would be a "variant". It wasn't until later that the products became more standardized. Like Dan said about the demand during the gold rush and Oregon trail migration increasing demand. There was much more variety during the (pre-1850) J & S period.

If you can, measure the bore with a set of digital calibers. I'm sure folks here would also like some dimensions posted (barrel length, width of the barrel at various points, length of pull, etc.).

The toe plate looks very "Hawken" to me. They used that finial motif on a few patchboxes. If that hole looks like a wood screw was once screwed in there... then yes... it could be from a screw stud for sling attachment.

I'm sure the trigger guard and butt plate were castings produced by one of the major parts suppliers. Philadelphia was a major center for such parts. I just looked at the photos I have of the brass mounted rifle Dan mentioned that's at Cody. The trigger guard is not identical... but then... it doesn't have to be. I'm just saying it's not the same casting.

Bob Browner may be another person to contact. He purchased Don Stith's business.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 12:06:04 AM by RAT »
Bob

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2023, 03:46:46 AM »
Back in the early 70s I lived only about 40 miles from fellow member of The Dakota Territories Gun Collectors Assn. , Dr. Ken Leonard and had a couple of chances to have a nice sit down with him. One of the things he stressed to me was that there were/are a lot of variations in gun makers work including the Hawken Brothers. A lot of his Hawken's ended up in the Cody Museum IIRC.

Offline bbennet2@hotmail.com

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2023, 04:44:37 AM »
I posted the measurements from end of barrel to the breach. I also believe there was a tang measurement. I’ll get a flat measurement and the number of landings, as well as the bore mic. Any other measurements that might be handy?

Offline RAT

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2023, 06:27:19 AM »
Looks like my speculation about the escutcheons was wrong. I just enlarged the photos on my desktop... as opposed to my laptop... the rear left hand escutcheon seems to be missing from the stock. That explains the one in the patchbox.

I've been looking through my books and have found several Hawken-associated rifles with back-action locks. One marked "T. Campbell" (Tristam Campbell), one marked "H & C" (Hoffman and Campbell), and one marked "Campbell" (Tristam Campbell). Tristam Campbell worked at the Hawken shop beginning in 1842. According to Hanson, Samuel Hawken retired in 1854. At that point his son, William Hawken, took over control of the shop. Tristam Campbell became his partner. Campbell left the business in 1856. These rifles post-date the time he worked for Hawken.

Any measurements are helpful. For example... I'd be interested to learn if the barrel is tapered and flared. I created a 6 page Excel spreadsheet of measurements for one rifle we examined at the Montana Historical Society. I'm kind of crazy that way.
Bob

Online Tanselman

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2023, 08:01:12 AM »
When I pulled the image of the back side of the forestock off and enlarged it significantly, it appears that both front and back wedge escutcheons are missing.

Shelby Gallien

Offline bbennet2@hotmail.com

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2023, 08:14:28 AM »
Yes, they are both missing. One is in the primer box. The small brads are falling out on the right side as well. The keys are all that are holding one in. Both brads are in the other.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2023, 01:55:46 PM »
Has anyone given any consideration to the possiblity that it is a rebarreled rifle? Not impossible and might explain
why it doesn't fit the "mould"assigned to the Hawken rifle.Just an early morning thought from a feeble mind.
Bob Roller

Offline alacran

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2023, 03:04:03 PM »
Too bad the Hawken brothers weren't told what their guns were supposed to look like. The ones I have seen looks similar but are far from being identical.
Different locks, different breeches, different tangs, different but plates, different scutcheons, but they are still similar in appearance.
They also werent told to date them.
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Offline bbennet2@hotmail.com

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2023, 04:16:19 PM »
Anyone have thoughts on where to get a correct ramrod? The Hawken shop has the fittings, other than that all I can find are ones from cabelas and such and most are not the right length.

Offline Carney Pace

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2023, 04:40:10 PM »
If you can contact Jim Gordon in Glorieta, New Mexico.  He has several Hawken's on display in his museum.
I was there about a year ago and it was worth the trip.
Carney

Offline rich pierce

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2023, 05:19:06 PM »
If you can contact Jim Gordon in Glorieta, New Mexico.  He has several Hawken's on display in his museum.
I was there about a year ago and it was worth the trip.
Carney
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« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 04:15:45 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline jdm

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2023, 07:27:47 PM »
A back action lock , original to a Hawken, is not unheard of although not common.   In fact there is one here in Missouri.
JIM

Offline Joe Stein

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2023, 11:14:19 PM »
. "Does your rifle have a simple single trigger... or is it a set trigger?".
I don't see where this was answered. When I enlarge the picture of the trigger area I am pretty sure the screw directly in front of the trigger is an adjustment screw for the set trigger. There appears to be a slot for a screwdriver and also a cross hole for a pin to turn it. The dark spot in front of that looks like the screw hole for the tang screw.
Joe Stein

Offline Mule Brain

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2023, 03:34:09 PM »
Fascinating thread, and thanks for sharing such a piece of history with us.

I do see a hole there in that last pic, where a sling mount probably was located. 
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Offline bbennet2@hotmail.com

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2023, 10:13:47 PM »
Joe, there is a set screw in front of the trigger. So I do believe it is a single set trigger.

Offline RAT

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2023, 06:40:12 AM »
You asked about a replacement ramrod... rather than going into a long explanation here... I sent you a private message explaining what you'll need.
Bob

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2023, 08:08:33 PM »
Joe, there is a set screw in front of the trigger. So I do believe it is a single set trigger.
Push the trigger forward and if it clicks and sets then touch it and see if it IS a set trigger.Pushing it forward may also expose spring tension even if the "set" doesn't work.
Bob Roller

Offline JPK

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2023, 12:54:42 AM »
Joe, there is a set screw in front of the trigger. So I do believe it is a single set trigger.
Push the trigger forward and if it clicks and sets then touch it and see if it IS a set trigger.Pushing it forward may also expose spring tension even if the "set" doesn't work.
Bob Roller
And have the hammer in the fired position before doing this.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

Offline RAT

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Re: J&S Hawken rifle
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2023, 02:28:07 AM »
Correct! Tripping a set trigger with the hammer in the half cock position could break stuff.

I haven't seen Herb or Phil Meek posting comments. I hope everything is OK. They're usually on top of Hawken posts. They have a lot of good information to contribute.
Bob