Author Topic: Two Locks - Two Questions  (Read 2307 times)

Offline 120RIR

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Two Locks - Two Questions
« on: March 22, 2023, 05:54:20 PM »
I picked these up recently to add to my slowly growing stock of parts and locks for hopeful future restoration projects (or, in lieu of that, eye candy).  What do y'all think of the fowler lock? English? American, Dutch?  Just an FYI - the tapered octagonal nut arrangement on the cock appears to be completely original so perhaps that offers a clue? I didn't see anything comparable in my admittedly limited reference library. The Ketland lock is marked Kentland on the inside, all upper-case, and an asterisk-like stamp.  To my moderately trained eye it appears to be an early Ketland - 1770s/1780s?  Also, when did Ketland first start producing export locks of which I presume this is an example? 




Offline rich pierce

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2023, 05:59:47 PM »
Both are real beauties. Great finds! The early round faced lock with the separate pan, may be Germanic. Bridle also looks Germanic in style. Could be Dutch. Terrific lock.
Andover, Vermont

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2023, 06:07:19 PM »
Real nice locks!

See Joe Puleo's article on the Ketland family in MAA Magazine Vol 33 No. 6 2011. It is available for purchase from Mowbray Publishers.
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Offline JTR

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2023, 06:10:02 PM »
The top lock,,,  so you're the guy I was bidding against!!!  ;D
John Robbins

Offline 120RIR

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2023, 08:29:34 PM »
Uh-oh.  I didn't realize us NorCal hillbillies were in competition with you big-shot SoCal Hollywood types!   ;)


Offline rich pierce

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2023, 08:34:40 PM »
Uh-oh.  I didn't realize us NorCal hillbillies were in competition with you big-shot SoCal Hollywood types!   ;)
Might have been a Yankee bidding as well!
Andover, Vermont

Offline jdm

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2023, 08:53:07 PM »
Maybe  it's my bad eyes or some rust  but it looks like a letter T above the  t on the Ketland stamp. If so that would change the time period of your lock. Maybe 1790-1800.  Two nice locks.  If J.T.R was a little looser with the purse strings ............
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 07:45:52 PM by jdm »
JIM

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2023, 09:43:09 PM »
The Ketland lock could be a large pistol or small rifle/fowler lock given the size.  I've debated that one given the overall length.

The big round face lock was likely made for the middle eastern market in my opinion, i.e, usually called a 'Turkish' piece.  Probably an earlier one as opposed to the more common later stuff that are much cruder.
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Offline Avlrc

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2023, 10:03:34 PM »
The top lock,,,  so you're the guy I was bidding against!!!  ;D

Me too :)

Offline Old Time Hunter

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2023, 10:45:41 PM »
The Ketland lock could be a large pistol or small rifle/fowler lock given the size.  I've debated that one given the overall length.

The big round face lock was likely made for the middle eastern market in my opinion, i.e, usually called a 'Turkish' piece.  Probably an earlier one as opposed to the more common later stuff that are much cruder.
If you don't mind, would you name some of the features that that give you the feeling of a Middle Eastern origin? I ask for education purpose. Thank you

Offline JTR

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2023, 10:49:47 PM »
Uh-oh.  I didn't realize us NorCal hillbillies were in competition with you big-shot SoCal Hollywood types!   ;)

Well, you're lucky! If I hadn't had to fill my car up with gas, I'd had a lot more money for bidding! :-)

That lock was a very popular item, for sure! Glad it went to a good home.
John Robbins

Offline 120RIR

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2023, 12:48:49 AM »
Just to help clarify...there is no "T" above the Ketland.  It's simply "Ketland" with the asterisk-looking stamp just below and to the left of the "K".  I could post a better close-up photo if anyone would like.

As for Ebay, nuts...and here I thought it was my own little secret (ha!).

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2023, 01:16:29 AM »
The Ketland lock could be a large pistol or small rifle/fowler lock given the size.  I've debated that one given the overall length.

The big round face lock was likely made for the middle eastern market in my opinion, i.e, usually called a 'Turkish' piece.  Probably an earlier one as opposed to the more common later stuff that are much cruder.
If you don't mind, would you name some of the features that that give you the feeling of a Middle Eastern origin? I ask for education purpose. Thank you

Honestly it's just a gut feel after seeing so many of them come up for sale constantly, and you really have to look at them closely.  The weird little nut on the tumbler shaft instead of a threaded hole/screw:  I've seen this on many middle eastern guns and yes you can find it on Euro stuff too, but it's not common.  Also the way the pan carries a frizzen bridle which does not appear to be threaded all the way through - that is classic middle eastern lock work, although most are later than this appears to be.  Also the overall appearance is a bit chunky and just 'too much' compared to what you will find on Euro pieces made for the Euro market.

Keep in mind that when I say "Turkish," it may be something made in the middle east, or it may be something made in Europe for the middle eastern trade.  The Euro work destined for the middle east was definitely not made to the same standard as work made for guns to be used 'at home.'

Overall I like the lock but if i was going to use it for either Euro or American work, I would initiate some changes to ensure there was no question as to where it was originally intended to be used.  Just a gut thing, and for you guys buying ebay locks, there sure are a LOT of middle eastern locks popping up there because the overall pieces themselves do not sell very easily unless parted out.  The individual parts on their own are much more difficult to determine place of origin, and so they tend to get sold in pieces.
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Offline Avlrc

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2023, 01:49:18 AM »
You could get good stuff on eBay cheap 15 -20 years ago, but now it seems to bring good money. 

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2023, 03:48:42 PM »
The top lock is a Birmingham export product. The Ketlands started exporting locks to America in July or August, 1793. But...that lock could have been made by any of the black country lock makers. Without a name on it, there is no association with the Ketlands except for the fact that they bought their export locks from the same makers everyone else did. They did not make them...

Also, describing locks in the terms devised of a maker of reproductions is VERY confusing. I have serious doubts that there was such a thing as "early" and "late" but even if there was they overlapped by years. Gun locks were made on an industrial scale by multiple specialists with dedicated tools. It would have been both expensive and time consuming to change their appearance so, when change took place, it did so slowly, probably as tooling wore out. So-called "early" locks, without an external bridle (or often enough the internal bridle) were still being made well after the War of 1812. The appearance and technical development was a function of the price...not fashion. Simple, i.e. "early" locks were being made and sold simultaneously with sliding bar safteys and water proof pans.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 04:36:01 PM by JV Puleo »

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2023, 04:32:03 PM »
That small lock was made with minimum material and it's the first I have ever seen with an incomplete bridle and the sear supported by the screw only. The unbridled pan is common and if done right can work well.That round plate lock to me is an oddity.
Bob Roller

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2023, 05:56:04 PM »
I'd wager a guess that the bridle on the brit lock was originally a typical bridle and at some point the thin arm for the sear screw broke at the junction with the main bridle body.  I have seen this on a lot of old locks and I have a few like this.  If the bridle has the typical pin in addition to the upper screw, it still will provide a pretty good degree of support and solidity even without the sear screw support (not at good, but ok).
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2023, 06:30:03 PM »
My feeling is that this small lock was made with a bridle like we see it now.  To me the shape is such that I think it was intended and not a result of a breakage. 

I don't remember the sources, but I recall Gary and Wallace mentioning descriptions of all the different English export lock grades.  Seems one category was a "half bridle" if I remember correctly.  I'm pretty sure the conclusion they drew was a bridle like is being shown.

Though not common, I think I've seen this before and a bridle shape very much like this example.

Jim

Offline JTR

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2023, 07:26:49 PM »
You could get good stuff on eBay cheap 15 -20 years ago, but now it seems to bring good money.

Isn't that true! Seeing what things are bringing, makes me wonder if I shouldn't dig out all the old odds and ends I have and offer them up!
John Robbins

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2023, 08:09:12 PM »
My feeling is that this small lock was made with a bridle like we see it now.  To me the shape is such that I think it was intended and not a result of a breakage. 

I don't remember the sources, but I recall Gary and Wallace mentioning descriptions of all the different English export lock grades.  Seems one category was a "half bridle" if I remember correctly.  I'm pretty sure the conclusion they drew was a bridle like is being shown.

Though not common, I think I've seen this before and a bridle shape very much like this example.

Jim

Certainly a possibility but I've not seen one myself.  I have a few that have a break through the sear screw arm of the bridle and while the piece is still there its just 'dangling' and not attached.  I also have one an early German lock that clearly suffered a break and is exactly like this one, and you can see the coarse file marks where the break was smoothed down to reshape the bridle at a later point rather than repair it.

I guess it would answer the question to some extent if someone can show another brit lock like this with a bridle like this that clearly looks to be original.  Honestly as someone who has forged out locks, I don't see the point because I can't see it saving any time or cost if you're already doing the work to make a bridle.  And, I strongly suspect that brit commercial locks by this period were being forged using dies so again, it doesn't make sense (to me) to omit such a small portion of the bridle.  Omitting the bridle entirely - now THAT I can see affecting cost and time.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2023, 08:47:05 PM »
An old topic where Gary Brumfield mentioned the style of bridle that supports the tumbler but not the sear.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18206.0

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2023, 08:53:55 PM »
Yes that is interesting, and I'm certainly glad to see his pages are still up, but while he mentions this he illustrates no photos of one.  As I said - the terminology makes sense in this respect, but I've never seen one that wasn't clearly a broken bridle.  Maybe Gary did but unfortunately we can't ask him.  And while it explains the terminology it doesn't explain how on earth it would be saving any time or cost because I just don't buy that.

I would love to see some pictures of other locks with a bridle like this that were clearly unmolested.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2023, 09:18:49 PM »
Not English locks, but Continental 17th century.













I'm pretty sure I've seen later British work like this as well.   Does anyone remember the Muzzleblast article where Wallace discusses locks and bridles?  Probably from 10 years ago or so.  I think he might have shown an example.

As to the lock in question, I have a hard time imagining a reasonable original bridle shape that could result in the current configuration if broken.  This is especially true given the relative consistency of English bridle design of the period.  Also, I think with just a little careful examination there should be some indication whether this design is first work.  Or at least no reason to doubt it being first work, especially given the precedent for such bridles.

Jim

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2023, 12:31:43 AM »
I really wish I could travel back in time and ask someone 'Wots, uh, the deal' (  ;D ) because it just doesn't make sense to me.  It's not (imho) saving any real time in manufacture to my mind.  As I said, I've not seen one first hand that was clearly made that way, so I'll certainly accept it at face value as I can't provide a valid first-hand argument to the contrary.  I know those that I own or have owned, and have seen, all clearly are broken sear screw arms.  I'll see if I can remember to take some pics and post them.  This is a really interesting topic.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Two Locks - Two Questions
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2023, 02:04:11 AM »
Hi Guys,
I am very glad Joe Puleo chimed in.  When it comes to anything Ketland I am in awe of his erudition.  The British gun trade during the 18th and early 19th centuries is utterly fascinating. It exhibited so many contradictions.  Britain was arguably the initial prime mover of the industrial revolution, providing much of the science, engineering, and inventions that fueled it.  Yet, to stick with gun making, by our Civil War, we were making guns largely with machines but the British still relied on extensive hand work and highly skilled labor.  Why?  Even during the 18th century, the Brown Bess musket changed very little technologically compared with French muskets. Why the conservatism?  It wasn't just stodgy government officials, it was a societal phenomena. Whereas the U.S. had a dearth of skilled workers for its first 100 years, Britain overflowed with skilled workers.  Where we used machines as a force multiplier for our lack of workers, the workforce in Britain looked on many machines as ruining their livelihoods. In many industries in Britain, particularly gun making, instead of using machines to augment workers, they turned a large population of workers into machines by extreme divisions of labor.  The mercantilism that obsessed Britain as a way to keep high employment and profits was a major reason why we rebelled.  Lock makers were the most technically proficient tradesmen (and tradeswomen) in the British gun making system.  They also could ply their expertise making instruments, clocks, and mechanical toys.  They could work where the money was. To the British government, keeping lock makers in the trade was a matter of national security. So ample production of export guns, East India company guns and African slave trade guns became an important source of income and job support when government military contracts were slim.  The civilian sporting gun industry was comparatively small and often difficult for makers to stay solvent. The real fortunes were made either supplying guns to the Ordnance or supplying the EIC and Africa Company.  The lock makers ebbed and flowed to and from the gun trades depending on the economy.  It was easier to bring them back to full production if the locks they were making were ones they made before.  That stifled change and innovation outside the elite civilian gun trade. So the end result is you have archaic lock designs being sold for export and on trade guns because those were cheap to produce, required little "re-education" of the work force, and maximized profits to the gun makers.

dave
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