Jos. Angstadt

[JTR]

I'm posting these pictures for Mr. No Gold, and he should be along with the descriptive info shortly.
I've had it in hand and it's a beauty of a rifle!
Click the picture for a larger view.

[Tanselman]

This rifle is in outstanding original condition; we don't see many that look this original with great finish, oxidized inlays, great wood, unaltered lock, and great carving. Jeepers Dick, when you have rifles this good, why do you hang on to those junky ol' guns from Kentucky???

Shelby Gallien

[jdm]

Dick, You must of bought it the day after Joseph made it. The condition is outstanding.  I have always admired the Angstadt's work. They are folksy  and different yet still have great lines. What a wonderful gun . It was nice of you to share it here.  Jim

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dick I'm still digging into this but I'm not convinced it's Joseph.  It's late, 1820s or 1830s maybe, and Joseph was 'up the river' by that point I believe.  I know he was up in Milton, also Lewisburg when his son Gideon died.  This has some upper Susquehanna characteristics and I'm wondering if perhaps this may be an early Gideon Angstadt.  He was born in 1800 I believe and to date I have yet to see a piece *signed* by Gideon Angstadt.  Joseph, on the other hand, did sign his work.  Maybe not all, but there sure are some signed pieces.  This actually looks better than most of Joseph's work.  So I guess it might be a late Joseph, and probably not made in Berks but rather somewhere up in Northumberland, or it may be a Gideon Angstadt.

I think there have been a number of wacky rifles attributed to Gideon Angstadt but none are signed and when one tried to dig down as to why the attribution, it completely falls apart.  Again, I've yet to see one with a signature.  And he was dead by I think @ 1852 or within a couple of years either way (off the top of my head at the moment).

Another very interesting thing here is this:  just look at the rifle without the carving or decoration.  Architecturally, it's actually almost a ringer for one of the earlier Peters, especially with that long low cheek.  And with no lower butt molding, there's no weird step. 

I don;t know but I',m still looking into this.  Hopefully Dave M or Noel may have some thoughts.  I can;t see it as anything but a prototypical 'up the river' rifle.

[DaveM]

Dick, that is a wonderful piece, thanks for providing photos.

[WESTbury]

Dick,

I'm sure that we all appreciate you letting us admire your fine Angstadt rifle. It's very generous of you to share the rifle with the ALR.

Kent

[debnal]

That is a very nice looking rifle. Doesn't matter who made it.
Al

[Eric Kettenburg]

That is a very nice looking rifle. Doesn't matter who made it.
Al

I'll sure agree with that.  But nevertheless, the mystery is a challenge!

[Buck]

Dick,

Nice, really an exceptional piece - an absolute smoke show!

Eric,

I agree, I think we can eliminate Adam 1, Peter 1, Joseph, and Abraham. I think we can eliminate anyone from Abrahams lineage as well since he rarely if at all built in the Eastern Style and they moved West. You'll need to remind me, (I don't have my notes in front of me) I believe Peter didn't have any kids. If that is correct, then it would have to be one from Josephs line. It's certainly a bit later 1820's and beyond in my opinion, that would land it in Gideon's time of production. I know how you like the Gideon discussion - I had a rifle similar in architecture to this that was attributed to Gideon which was very close if not identical to the rifle in Patrick's Berks Co. Book. Another Angstadt mystery, does Dave M have any info on Apprentices coming out of the shop aside from family members? I think we often ignore (because of the size of the family) that possibility.

Buck 

[eastwind]

I agree with Buck and Eric--something about this rifle says it is not Joseph or Peter - some photos attached show Peter and Joseph's work as being more sophisticated. And I've never seen those oversized decorative sideplate washers on a Peter or Joseph rifle --possibly on a folksy Jacob Angstadt rifle, but this doesn't look like Jacob's work either.
   As to Gideon, I'm constantly changing my opinion on what really are his rifles. When I did the Berks book I owned two rifles often attributed to Gideon (both shown here). Although born in northern Berks County, I think he worked more in Schuylkill County, as these rifles look more like later Upper Susquehanna-styled rifles, and one had that tell-tale pin on the first pipe, which convinced me of the region. I originally found the attribution from a number of photos and mentions in other sources - mostly other books from earlier students. But I never found a reliable source to verify these two un-signed rifles are by Gideon, albeit they do have some features found on Berks/Angstadt rifles.
I also subsequently saw where Michael Simens in Teaxs attributed a similar rifle to Gideon.

As someone said before-if we don't know who the Berks maker was - call it a Gideon. Maybe Mr. NoGold's is by Gideon (just kidding)- if not by Gideon then it must be by one of the Sheners, the most recent catch-all gunsmiths we are now calling every unknown Berks rifle.
Patrick Hornberger

[Daryl]

Beautiful rifle and I really like the filed rifling at the muzzle.

[Buck]

Patrick,

Good to hear from you. The Simens rifle is the one that I owned for a short time. Was a solid gun, original finish and void of restoration. I recall it being a rather large rifle, bulky and heavy. Certainly not the slender / light rifles typical to Peter and Joseph or the rifles we refer to as the “Ghost” rifles we believe to be Adams. Another smith that worked around the Angstadt and Pannabeckers was Feder. His engraving was more sophisticated than the Angstadt but several of his works carry many of the Angstadt traits. That’s why I’ve questioned the apprentices outside of the family circle. Anyone know of any? Also, the patch box position - not centered within the parameters of the stock structure is a Dauphin Co. trait - I forget the father and son team from there, same style of box position.

Buck

[DaveM]

Buck and Eric,

Based on my research notes these all were documented gunsmiths in the Angstadt family:

 Joseph (son of Adam 1) and Joseph’s son Gideon:  had both moved to Lewisburg, Union County, Pa by 1824. I believe Joseph moved there first - later in 1823.

Abraham: he moved to Orwigsburg Schuylkill County sometime prior to 1810. The Abraham that was still in Berks at that time, and after, was not the gunsmith.

Peter and sons / grandson: There were several documented Angstadt gunsmiths that stayed in Berks County their entire lives. Peter, the gunsmith born in 1763, had two sons that were both also documented gunsmiths: Jacob (1783-died in Berks 1843) and Joseph (1794-died after 1870). And this Joseph had a son Joseph who was a Berks gunsmith (1817-1872). My feeling is that these sons Jacob and Joseph may be responsible for many / most of the unknown Angstadt rifles.

So we don’t even know for certain that all of the signed Joseph Angstadt rifles are by the man that moved to LEWISBURG! Some at least could be made by Peter’s son Joseph born in 1794 or even hs grandson Joseph.

To try to discern between Joseph’s family rifles (that is Joseph 1 son of Adam 1, and Joseph’s son Gideon) and those of Peter’s family, 1823-1824 was kind of the cutoff date since Joseph and Gideon moved to Lewisburg that year. I did not see others associated with Joseph and Adam working with them. But Joseph at least may have been associated with Kutztown mason / gunsmith John Neff. I have a copy of Neff’s estate documents and Joseph Angstadt was listed among others that received some payment from the estate - possibly for services rendered associated with the funeral. Neff likely worked with Adam 1 and Adam’s son Joseph since they were the only three gunsmiths in Kutztown at the time.

[Buck]

Dave,

Were there any other Angstadt apprentices outside of the family?

Buck

[DaveM]

Buck, not that I found.

[mr. no gold]

Sorry to take so long to post this, but things nave been complicated around here lately. Many thanks to JTR for posting the photos! Here is what I know of the gun. A friend spoke to me about it and sent some photos. He is not a KY collector and did not know too much about them. I set to doing some research on who might have made it. It certainly smacked of being an Angstadt, but which one?
I looked through all the books I have and found a gun that had the same side plates at the lock counter plate; the 'mustache and the comma' set with pins. That may have been in a Whisker book if my very poor memory serves. Anyway there are two rifles with the same detail.
Next stop was the internet calling up 'Angstadt' and the first one that pops up is a signed 'Jos. Ans' signed rifle coming up at a Morphy Auction. While the gun I have is the standard model the auction gun is the deluxe version. Some engraving, profuse carving, (all incised) and one is a carbon copy of the other. The architectural profile is the same, the trigger guard is the same, butt plate finial filed with the same details, carving is same pattern laid out a little differently in each rifle, each patch box has the same 'lyre' side plates and the Xmas tree finial although the latter are not the same. Each is set with steel pins and no screws. Odd! The rear sights are identical in form, filing and punctated decoration.
So, with these facts in hand it was an easy jump to Joseph Angstadt as the builder of the gun. It has been compared with a Peter Ang and there is scant similarity. Not sure when
JA died but he could have made this in his later years, if he indeed did make it. Cowan's sold a JA rifle that looked about like every other Berks County rifle of that era, so that one did not factor into this maker guesstimate.
Thank you all for your valued input, and sharing expertise far beyond what I possess. Oh, did I mention that when it came up for sale I jumped at the opportunity to buy it. As it stands at this time it is the 'mystery rifle' and guess that it may stay that way for awhile until another one shows up with a name. Dang those old guys anyway!
Dick

[DaveM]

Assuming my notes are correct, the likely working years for each Angstadt gunsmith would be:
1. Adam 1758-1812 Berks County
2. Peter 1780-1815 Berks County
   3. Jacob 1801-1843 Berks County
   3. Joseph 1812-1860 Berks County
2. Joseph 1783-1823 Berks County, 1823-1850 Lewisburg, Union County / Milton Northumberland County
   3. Gideon 1818-1823 Berks County, 1823-1854 Lewisburg, Union County
2. Abraham 1801-1808 Berks County, 1808-1826? Schuylkill County, ?-1867 Indiana
   3. Peter 1825 Schuylkill County- ?? Indiana
   3. Adam 1844-? Indiana

[mr. no gold]

Just a thought, but there are a few other views of the rifle; tang area, trigger guard, rear pipe, etc. and such that might be of some interest. If anyone wants to have a look let me know and I will put them up. Really appreciate the highly informed comments and perspectives you all have given on the gun. Thank you! Much appreciated!!!
Dick
 

[WESTbury]

Just a thought, but there are a few other views of the rifle; tang area, trigger guard, rear pipe, etc. and such that might be of some interest. If anyone wants to have a look let me know and I will put them up. Really appreciate the highly informed comments and perspectives you all have given on the gun. Thank you! Much appreciated!!!
Dick
 

Dick,

Would love to see the additional photos of your great rifle. Thanks in advance.

Kent

[mr. no gold]

Kent, in response to your request, here are a few more photos of the 'mystery' rifle. Thanks!
Dick

[WESTbury]

Thanks for the additional photos Dick. I like the rear sight, very decorative.

Proof that "All good things come to he who waits."

I believe that the Morphy link below is the rifle you referred to in your April post.
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=492781

[mr. no gold]

That would be the one, Kent. Thank you for pulling it up. Cowans had one advertised as a 'JA' but I looked nothing like this one. More like the standard Reading guns, so I saw no reason for a comparison there.
Thanks again, Dick

[Buck]

The Morphy’s gun is interesting. My guess would be Joseph son of Peter. Dick I would opine your rifle is a different hand from the same family. Still a great gun.

Buck

[mr. no gold]

Thanks Noel! Glad that you like it. For me is is a bit odd and out of the ordinary, but have to admit, it's growing on me. The condition was the first attraction.
Dick

[rich pierce]

For the Angstadt aficionados: https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military-Artifacts/Flintlocks/Flintlock-American-Long-Rifle-Featured-in-The-Kentucky-Rifle/lotInformation/75911790