Author Topic: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?  (Read 20672 times)

eagle24

  • Guest
Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« on: November 24, 2009, 08:33:28 PM »
I do.  Last night, I decided to check/clean two rifles that I have not shot in a while. 

The first is my .32 cal squirrel rifle that I got from Curt Lyles.  It has a Green Mountain barrel.  I ran a patch down the bore with a cleaning solution I use at the range.  Pretty clean, just a very very slight light brown trace of rust.  I cleaned it with a couple of soapy patches, followed it up with a good rinse with cold water, dried the bore and oiled.  Should be good for awhile.

The second however, was not so good.  My .50 cal Lehigh Valley rifle also with a Green Mountain barrel.  I have had a nightmare of a time trying to get this rifle clean every time I have shot it.  I check it normally about every two weeks and find myself cleaning again because there is significant rust present.  I always clean with cold water and Joy dishwashing detergent followed by a good rinse with just cold water.  Then dry and oil the bore.  I can get it clean after about an hours work, but a week later or so, it will have rust in the bore.  A few months ago, I decided that maybe there was some browning solution or something in the bore that needed to be neutralized, so I washed the bore with ammonia, then used some baking soda with water, then the Joy and water, then just water.  I thoroughly dried and oiled the bore.  After this, I thought maybe I had it clean and the rusting stopped.  Ran a patch down it last night and got a healthy dose of reddish brown rust in return.  I worked on it about an hour to get it clean and dryed and oiled.  I can almost promise that within a week it will have rust in the bore.

Couple more things:

1. I do not have a humidity issue or moisture issue where the rifles are stored.  This is the only one giving me fits.

2. I'm not leaving excess oil in the bore.

Anybody have any suggestions? ???

Dancy

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 08:58:05 PM »
I have one I was having problems with rust in the grooves, some guys on here suggested I wasn't using a tight enough jag/patch while cleaning. I am trying that and suspect that was the issue. I had used WD40 in the bore, but am going to a better rust preventer now, in addition to a better cleaning combination.

What type of oil are you using?

Three of the most effective rust preventatives I have heard shooters are happy with are Eezox, Ballistol and Break-Free, you might try one of those.

James

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 09:45:47 PM »
Make certain she is dry then Ballistol.   Works for me!  I do not use it in the lock
Seems to get a little waxy build up!

I should add that the CRC-56 of which I have some left, is great stuff also both in the bore and in the lock....I use both/either!  But, my rifles get a lot of action! ;D
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 11:27:11 PM by Roger Fisher »

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 09:50:54 PM »
I swear by Ballistol also.  Great stuff.  It will even keep the wife and kids away.  Like I said, great stuff. 

 ;D ;D
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline C Wallingford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Northern Kentucky
    • CW Knives
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 09:52:56 PM »
Ken--
Are you using the Ballistol full strength?

Scott Semmel

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 09:58:49 PM »
I'm assuming you use the same lube in all your guns so that probaly isn't your problem. I had the problem you're describing with lubes I won't mention and with Buffalo Ballets, shot a few of those out of curiosity and thought I'ld never get the blinkin gun clean. Is the bore smooth? no places where a tight patch seems to grab more then others? The patch/jag tightness mentioned may be an issue, there is a significant difference in the size of jags from one manufacturer to another.

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 10:04:53 PM »
For which?  the rifle or the kids?    In seriousness, yes I use it full strength. 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 10:32:47 PM »
I have a smoothbore that seems to attract rust more than any of my other guns... I wondered why til a friend asked me if I shoot the gun very much... I did not. My guns that I shoot the most, tend to be more rust-free than the one that I don't shoot very much... I think the barrel just needs more use... but we'll see...

Ken
Galations 2:20

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 10:35:02 PM »
I usually coat the bore with Hoppe's 9 Lubricating Oil, but have used Break Free on this rifle as well.  It is a .50 cal rifle barrel not smooth bore.  I have removed the breech plug for cleaning and the bore cleans bright and shiny (at least on the lands).  As far as I can tell there is no rust in the grooves either.  It puzzles the heck out of me, to the point I don't really want to shoot the rifle because it is such a PIA to clean.  I'll get some Ballistol, been meaning to try some anyway, but my feeling is there is something else going on with this barrel.  Maybe just really porous steel?

hookie13

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 10:38:40 PM »
We found that humidity played a role with some products when cleaning.
I found that WD40 caused rust and have put that down to both location and humidity.
Ballistol I found did the same tho' I still use this product for cleaning my locks etc.
The product I have found totally satisfactory is CRC-56.
You  clean the barrel out with water (cold) using maybe 3 or 4 patches and then let it stand  in the sun to dry. (Note: it must be left long enough to dry....in the winter use a hair dryer or heat gun)
Spray CRC-56 onto a patch and re-do the barrel and repeat maybe another 2 or 3 times.
Finish off by spraying a bit down the barrel .
The CRC-56 coats the barrel with a fine oil.
Cap off a couple of times before you next shoot and its all sweet.
Hookie
 

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 10:49:24 PM »
It may be that even with your cleaning you are not getting the rust out completely, especially if it is deep in the grooves. Once rust starts, it is hard to get rid of with just cleaning patches, soap and water.  

Some of you guys who know more about barrels might want to comment here as I don't want to give anyone bad advice, but I have known people to use steel wool to polish the bore if a light rusty color shows up on a cleaning patch.  Basically run some 0000 steel wool in and out of the bore on your cleaning jag - it will stay put like a patch.   It should fit tight enough to push into the bottoms of the grooves and for you to see the groove indentations on the steel wool when you pull it out, but not so tight that it is extremely hard to push down and back up the bore. Run it in and out a few times, pull it out, turn it a bit, repeat.  Replace the steel wool "patch" a few times.  You can even oil the steel wool a bit with some WD 40, 3 in 1 Oil etc. if you want.  Once it comes up rust free, clean, dry and oil as normal.  Hopefully that would be the end of the rust.

By the way - especially in the winter - I know a lot of guys who don't oil their guns until they are home to make sure the gun is good and dry.  Oiling a damp bore can trap moisture.  

Good luck

Guy

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2009, 11:10:55 PM »
Thanks Guy!  I will have to admit that the bore on this rifle is looser than the Rice .50 barrel I used on the rifle I built.  You may be correct that I am not getting all the rust out of the grooves.  I thought of that also.  I'm going to try and find some heavier patch material for a tighter fit.  I wouldn't be opposed to trying something like steel wool in the bore, but would like some more info about how to do it with minimal or no damage.  This rifle has not been a tack driver, but has plenty good accuracy for hunting and my shooting, and I'm far from accomplished with a flintlock.

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2009, 11:24:56 PM »
Would you clean your rifle with a little salt & just a trace of muriatic acid added to the water?

That is Lemon Joy.

Really.

I was Director of Technology at a metals supplier where we sold fancy alloys, kinda like stainless but on Super Steroids. One of our good customers needed it for process equipment making soap & detergent. Got to learn something about their corrosion problems &  just what soap really is these days (since the 1960"s).

Stop using soap. Any soap, but especially the stuff with lemon or orange in it.

Modern soap rusts steel.

If your Gramma still makes soap in an iron kettle, why that is probably just fine.

Don't use any modern soap to clean your rifle.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 12:35:00 AM »
JCKelly's advice is golden!  The soap is your problem.  Cold water flushes bp fouling right down to the steel without soap.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Scott Semmel

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 12:38:14 AM »
I know folks on the board use steel wool wrapped around a brush and Dixon talks about its use in his builders book. And that on my first few guns I polished the bore with OO wool wrapped around a brush maybe a hundred strokes or so.Those  gun's only problem with accuracy is the guy pulling the trigger. That is the total of my knowledge about steel wools safety in bore cleaning /polishing.
I leather lap my barrels to polish them now. The leather with a lapping compound takes on the shape of the bore with clear and sharp lands and groves. It is quite easy when compared to lead lapping and it seems to work for me. It requires that you punch out disks of thick leather to form a column about an inch and a half long, half of the pieces slightly larger then bore size half slightly smaller. Thread the disks on a brass bolt appropriate to your cleaning rod thread then compress the column slightly with a small brass washer and nut. Saturate the leather with Ballistoil or neatsfot oil and apply a lapping compound (Brownells or Midway). Compress the column till you get a tight but workable fit in the bore. Then it is back and forth through the bore (without the lapp completely leaving the bore ) I do it maybe 100 reps. Remeber to use a muzzle guide if Lapping from muzzle and to allow the rod to rotate with the rifling. If you have pitting more reps may be needed.

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2009, 12:50:36 AM »
JCKelly's advice is golden!  The soap is your problem.  Cold water flushes bp fouling right down to the steel without soap.

OK, no problem with that and I will stop using soap.  However, I'm not sure I believe it is the problem in this case since I am not having trouble with either of my other rifles.  I think I have run enough plain water through to thoroughly rinse any soap out.  I pump it good with clear water and several patches after washing with the soap.  Then I run several patches with oil and usually spray Break Free down the bore, more dry patches.  Everything looks clean and dry.  Then I run a final patch with oil to give it a light coat.  I think tonight I will pull the barrel, remove the breach plug and scrub the daylights out of it with just water, re-oil and see what happens.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 12:52:19 AM by GHall »

Top Jaw

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 03:56:55 AM »
GHall

As far as the clean-up factor going forward.  I purchased one of those c-clamp flushing gizmos recently.  You pull your lock and attach this clamp to the barrel with an o-ring that fits over the touch-hole and a hose to place in a container of water.  It allows you to flush things thoroughly "through" the touch hole.  Also speeds cleanup tremendously, and the most important part is, I think it gets the bore and breech much cleaner than I can do with patches alone (i.e. cleaner bore = less prone to rust).  Plus I can do it with just 1 patch, and a few more dry ones to follow, then oil it.

It has made me shoot my guns more, since it helps with the cleanup job.  I think a few places might offer these.  I got mine from Wayne Dunlap. 

Also, when I'm done cleaning, I set the gun muzzle down over the ramrod which has an oily patch on it.  The next day I pull the rod, reverse the patch, and set the gun muzzle up with the rod in it for a day.   Just an old habit (or quirk maybe) that I'm not sure helps, but it does help me sleep better  ;)

Top Jaw

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 05:14:37 AM »
Good stuff, all - however  - hookie - WD40 does not cause rust. It might not prevent rust in humid areas,  but it does not cause rust.  If it did, all my guns would be rusty - yet none have ever rusted the borers - the oldest being about 30 years old - maybe a tich more.  never any rust, and the only after cleaning oil I use, is a flush with WD40, which is patch-blasted out the nipple seat or vent, then the gun is wiped down with that patch and that's it.  One was stored, untouched for about 8 years - no rust inside nor outside, same as the ones used more often - no difference.  It's all I've used since moving North from the very much more humid South of BC, about 1976.

I take it you meant due to the high ambient humidity in your area, the WD 40 didn't protect against rust.

In reading G. Hall's post, makes me wonder about phony powder useage - or - the bore might have a fissure problem - or - he's just not cleaning to the bottom corners of the grooves.  G.Hall - you say the bore is bright and shiny - aren't the grooves? They should be just as bright and shiny - if not, that's why it's rusting.  Lapping might help, but with all the previous rust, I think a properly cast lead lap is in order.  A cast Lapp won't take off the corners of the lands, as will cloth, leather, rubber or other material that must conform to the bore if used heavily.  The lead lap fits the bore perfectly and thus removes minute amounts of metal more evenly than something that is swaged tightly against the top corners.  If the barrel had deep rounded rifling, I'd have at it with all sorts of stuff, but since it's probably .010" to .012" deep, I'd cast an adjustable Lapp on a rod and do a proper lapping job.

chapmans

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 05:44:09 AM »
  I can't believe no one on this forum has mentioned Clenzoil, it is by far the best rust preventative I have ever used, I think some people also use it for patch lube but I have not tried it.  I know of 2 places that have it, Log Cabin and Cabelas, I bought a gallon of it several years ago so I'm set for a good many years.
  If you try it you will like it I promise, the only thing you have to do is displace any moisture, I flush with a little Hoppe's #9 then a dry patch then the Clenzoil. I've been shooting at Friendship since the 70's and I've used WD-40, just plain Hoppe's, among other things,  and always had that "Friendship Red" the first patch in the morning, since I started using Clenzoil ( 10 + yrs now) I've never had the Friendship Red on my patches, and it won't hurt the wood!!
   Regards, Steve Chapman

roundball

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 05:51:20 AM »
Guys, I hate to rain on the "it's the soap" parade.....but I've religilously used steaming hot water with lemon Joy dishwashing degtergent in a dozen and a half T/C and GM barrels during the past 18 years...bores have remained like factory new the whole time.


What I've always worried about is that cloth patches on a "round" jag can never really get perfectly into the "square" 90 degree land/groove corners...of every land/groove relationship for each of their lengths in a bore.
If you do the math, you are talking about an incredible amount of linear feet of square 90 degree corners.

Can't prove it was a benefit or not, but I've always included a couple dozen strokes with a good fitting bore brush as part of every cleaning, as an extra effort to dig out any trace in all that corner footage.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 04:42:11 PM by roundball »

eagle24

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 07:02:49 AM »
In reading G. Hall's post, makes me wonder about phony powder useage - or - the bore might have a fissure problem - or - he's just not cleaning to the bottom corners of the grooves.

Daryl,

I assume you are talking about the brand powder when you say "phony powder"?  I'm using GOEX Powder.  Again, I'm not having any trouble with my other rifles.  There is something going on with the bore in this one.  I don't know if it is the steel in this barrel or what.  I scrubbed it good tonight with a bore brush and oiled.  We'll see what happens.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 07:21:58 AM »
Is it a percussion? Have you had the rifle since new?  My point being, if someone before you used Pyrodex, and didn't clean exceptionally well, you will have pits, small fisures etc that will be a ***** to clean
I have cleaned a barrel like that, and got brown patches out of it two days later. Cleaned again and still got dirty patches again after a couple of days.

SPG

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2009, 05:31:26 PM »
Gentlemen,

"Amen" on both the Pyrodex and the Clenzoil. I really like Clenzoil as a preservative as well as G-96. Dan Phariss and I used it in hunting camp where rusting was a real problem and G-96 was the only thing that really worked. Didn't know about Clenzoil then but I prefer it to G-96 now. Clenzoil doesn't hurt wood so getting it on the stock is not a problem.

Steve

 

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2009, 10:15:34 PM »
Maybe it's not rust at all but the leftovers (seasoning) from your patch lube.
That stuff will coat a bore under heat and even after the bore is clean it still looks like rust on a clean patch.
Been doing this stuff since '76. Back then my lube was Crisco and I cleaned with hot soapy water followed by any type gun oil, and even down here in our 100% humidity our barrels simply did not rust. It was only years later after I was bewitched by claims of "1000's of shots, no cleaning" did I begin to find rust in a clean lubed bore.
Point is; I had a control to reference the problem against. And that control was all those rustless years with crisco. I ended up cleaning all my bores with brake cleaner to get rid of the seasoning. Now no more rust.
American horses of Arabian descent.

hookie13

  • Guest
Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2009, 10:27:52 PM »
Daryl, I will give this WD-40 another go..in fact I will go and buy a new can and see what happens.
Here in New Zealand we live less than a mile from the sea as the crow flys and have very high humidity rust is a problem and not just with rifles . A few of the black powder shooters myself included decided to find a suitable cleaner for for our rifles and compare notes.....WD-40 did not stack up whereas CRC-56 won hands down. However WD-40 is an amazing substance  so perhapd we had better check it out again.
I will try it your way and see what happens.
Cheers
Hookie