A rare 1750 Flint Lock Rifle

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are images of a early rare flint lock Rifle .
Feltwad

[ntqlvr1948]

English...or German?  What caliber is it and how is the bore?

[James Rogers]

I'm guessing this is a joke or a typo?

[Tim Crosby]

Looks like the buttstock was cut off and replaced with new wood or am I seeing things?  Nice rifle.

 Reminded me of Rich's gun when I first saw it.

   Tim

 https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=76817.msg761766#msg761766

[Mattox Forge]

Enclosed are images of a early rare flint lock Rifle .

Interesting piece.

Is that a breech loader with the plug being used as a rear sight?

Who is the maker? Do you have any internal photos of the lock?

Mike

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are images of a early rare flint lock Rifle .

Interesting piece.

Is that a breech loader with the plug being used as a rear sight?

Who is the maker? Do you have any internal photos of the lock?

Mike

Well it seems that  one member  knows  what it is  and it is not a joke .Yes it is  a breech loading  flintlock rifle a very rare piece no doubt there will be  other out there in my 75plus years of shooting and restoration I have only come across two of this type
Feltwad

[Mattox Forge]

Most of the English breechloaders I have seen in references and in photos were bottom loaded. I think I have seen a reference photo of a similar top loader that used the plug as a sight like this one. The lock looks like a replacement from a much later time, but I imagine the original was a flat type lock of a very similar lock shape that was coming into fashion in the 1750's. The round faced ones seem to have been relegated to military and utility guns by then.

That rifle appears to have the later type of acorn finial on the guard and a more round guard. Wouldn't that put it later in the 1750's, or possibly even the early 60's?

Mike

[James Rogers]

 I see nothing 1750s or even 1760s and thought it might be a typo or some sort of jest based on a prior post I had not seen. Maybe the barrel is from that period?  The NRA museum has a top loading breech loader by Pendril from the mid 18th century range.

[backsplash75]

I see nothing 1750s or even 1760s and thought it might be a typo or some sort of jest based on a prior post I had not seen. Maybe the barrel is from that period?  The NRA museum has a top loading breech loader by Pendril from the mid 18th century range.

+1

[smart dog]

Hi Feltwad,
I tried to post this earlier but the ALR site was down.  It is a nice gun and thank you for posting it.  I've seen examples of the the top breech plug English rifles that go back to the 17th century.  If you add bottom loading breech loaders, I've seen more early 18th century English breech loading rifles than muzzle loading examples.  On your example, the trigger guard, checkering, and lock are from the very late 1760s and more likely the 1770s. For example, the guard has an acorn finial,  the coarse checkering is right out of the 1770s or later, the lock has a short sear spring.  Surely, you know those features are not from the 1750s. The feather spring must be a replacement because I cannot believe a quality British gun maker would make one like that.  It is an interesting rifle but it has no clean 1750s provenance.

dave     

[Mattox Forge]

Dave,

When do you start to see the deeper more round guards and the "2nd type acorn" finials that actually look like an acorn?

http://www.cablesfarm.co.uk/twigg-puzzle/
http://www.cablesfarm.co.uk/collecting/
Cablesfarm has them starting in 1770. They were certainly in abundance in the 70's. Could there have been some in the late 60's, or do you also think that is a hard date?

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__Archibald_Montgomerie_s_Flintlock_Fowler_by_Gr-LOT286004.aspx
This type is certainly older. Do you think this is what would be expected on guns from the 40's through the 60's? Or would they have been earlier as well? Isn't it usually associated with the more egg shaped guard?

Even though flintlocks were around a long time there was a lot of change in the styles. The furniture seems to be pretty straightforward to put a date range on though.  I'm just trying to learn more about them, so I hope you don't mind the questions.
Thanks,
Mike

[Feltwad]

Well it seems that the alterations to the lock which has  had a lot later  parts fitted make it look  a lot latter  but this lock is a  earlier  it originally  had a cock{hammer} which was minus a stop or shoulder  on the internally side and relied on a  buffer  for a stop and fitted  on the outside of the lock it was minus a bridle  with only a full cock on the tumbler with no stop The acorn finial of the trigger guard   is more appropriate to the period and prior to 1784-6.of the pineapple. The barrel is of iron  43 inches long with a nine groove  rifling with two full twist in 24 bore there is know doubt that this gun is of the  1750-70 but latter alterations can  give a difference of knowledge.
Feltwad

[Mike Brooks]

That trigger guard dates post 1765. I have never seen a lock like that on an English gun. I don't believe it belongs with the gun. What's up with the butstock splice? I have seen English buttocks lengthened for a longer pull, but this is a bit different. Is the barrel extremely large? It sure is beefy through the lower forestock. Unusual gun to say the least. Do you have any more pictures of this gun?

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
I've not seen a true acorn finial on a British gun that dated before 1770 either.  I allowed a little earlier time frame because I learned over the years that makers like William Bailes (died 1766) were often ahead of the fashion trends. I'll come to believe a certain dating for a feature only to find it on a Bailes gun 5-10 years earlier.   

dave

[Tim Crosby]

 Interesting thread. TC

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Mike,
I've not seen a true acorn finial on a British gun that dated before 1770 either.  I allowed a little earlier time frame because I learned over the years that makers like William Bailes (died 1766) were often ahead of the fashion trends. I'll come to believe a certain dating for a feature only to find it on a Bailes gun 5-10 years earlier.   

dave

I have often wondered if somebody operated Bailes business for a few years after he passed. His date of death and some features on his guns don't line up.

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
His wife, Mary, and son George kept the business going between 1766 and 1769, after which it closed.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Mike,
His wife, Mary, and son George kept the business going between 1766 and 1769, after which it closed.

dave

This may be the reason we see later features on Bailes guns.

[Feltwad]

Extra images
Feltwad









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[Loyer]

A breech loader like this is new to me.  Very nice and rare.

But what about the apparent seam/splice in the wood of the butt stock.  Is this normal or maybe an old repair ?

[Jim Kibler]

Well it seems that the alterations to the lock which has  had a lot later  parts fitted make it look  a lot latter  but this lock is a  earlier  it originally  had a cock{hammer} which was minus a stop or shoulder  on the internally side and relied on a  buffer  for a stop and fitted  on the outside of the lock it was minus a bridle  with only a full cock on the tumbler with no stop The acorn finial of the trigger guard   is more appropriate to the period and prior to 1784-6.of the pineapple. The barrel is of iron  43 inches long with a nine groove  rifling with two full twist in 24 bore there is know doubt that this gun is of the  1750-70 but latter alterations can  give a difference of knowledge.
Feltwad

The lock is pretty odd and I don't think there is anything on it that would point to a 1750 date either.  I say "odd" even given the later modifications.  I'm not sure the features you've mentioned to date it are reliable dating features of a British lock of this period.  I think someone already mentioned it, but I wouldn't be too sure this is the original lock.

Jim

[Feltwad]

Jim

Take it from me the gun is correct although latter parts altered on the lock  make it look a lot latter
Feltwad