Hybrid powder for Flintlock

[Swede Creek]

OK

I just finished my .50 pistol.    Only have half a can (pound) of "real" 3F  black powder.   Do have a couple pounds of triple-7 and Pyrodex.    Use the Triiple-7 and pyrodex in my percussion hawken.

Big question?    Would a 50/50 cocktail of BP/Triple-7 or BP/Pyrodex be more likely to be ignited by the Flintlocks flash than pure Triple-7 or Pyrodex?

Would there be any safety/social rules that woud be broken by giving this a try?

While on this topic, has anyone who has successfully used pure Triple-7 or Pyrodex in a flinter?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

BTW:  LIve in NE KS, so don't have easy access to the muzzle loader events in Ohio and the east coast. (where presumably, I might be able to pick up real BP) .   

BTW II:  If any other ALR members in Kansas or Southern Nebraska have a good source (or have a can or two of 2F or 3F to sell) please PM me!

[alacran]

I doubt that you will get that combo to work with a flintlock.
This is only my opinion, I would take the Pyrodex, and use it to fertilize your garden. It will do harmful things to your barrel. I would suggest you drop ten grains of the black powder in your barrel then drop 20 grains of 777 on top of that. The BP base charge will ignite the 777.

[Frank]

I have heard of guys putting about 10 grains of black powder down the barrel and then put a substitute powder on top of that to obtain reliable ignition. Never done it myself, so have no personal experience. I always use black powder in my guns. I have have been shooting flintlocks for over 40 years and will never buy a substitute powder.

[HSmithTX]

Go on Graf and Son or Powder Valley and order real black to your door,  a can of 4F will prime a flint rifle for 2000+ shots so get a pound.  The only downside I see to priming with fine powder is you need another container in your kit.  Then order a couple pounds of 3F and a couple 2F.  The hazmat shipping charges are high, but if you spread it over several pounds if adds next to nothing to your per shot cost to shoot.  I’ve had no complaints with Schuetzen and Swiss brand powders, I’m buying Swiss lately because it get a bit more speed out of the charge so I can use less or get more speed depending on what I want to do.

[smylee grouch]

By all means order some and give the fake stuff to someone you don't like. Your gun will thank you.

[Brokennock]

Even if you drop 10 grains down the bore before your substitute powder, you will need to prime with real black powder. You do NOT need to prime with 4f. You can prime with the same 3f or 2f you load the gun with.
I would reiterate the above advise to order several pounds of real black powder to be delivered directly to you. Grass, Maine Powder House, and a few others will all do this, spread the hazmat fee over a few pounds.
Save the fake stuff for a caplock or donate it to someone else who needs it.

[Nazgul]

I have been using 1/2 load of 2F black and the other half Pyrodex to shoot since the powder shortage started. Prime with 4F that I have. It shoots accurately and cleans no worse than real black.

Whether you should or not is up to you.

Don

[Eric Krewson]

I think the unmentionable pellets have a base of real black powder to help with ignition. I see no reason not to use the combo you suggested to get rid of your substitutes. I would put the black in first followed by the other stuff and not mix them together.

I have primed with everything from 1F to 4F, 1F was a little slow, very little difference between the rest.

[MuskratMike]

NOPE, not now not ever. Just bite the bullet and buy some real black powder. The other alternative is sell the fine flintlocks and buy a cap gun. Real black powder is out there you just have to look around a little. Go to a muzzleloader club in your area and see if anyone wants to go in on some.

[smylee grouch]

From the responses now and inn the past yes you could make it work with the duplex loads but my concern would be that you would still have the fake powder fouling in your barrel and according to past reports that is harder to clean than the real stuff. I have seen at least two that were supposedly cleaned CLEAN and put away till the next deer season then were discovered to be ruined (rusted ) beyond service. Those were with pyrodex.

[Eric Krewson]

I shot the fake stuff for about 15 years until a guy opened a local M/L shop and stocked real B/P. Cleaning after shooting the fake stuff is no different than cleaning after shooting black, clean is clean. The main problem with guns that were damaged by the fake stuff is the owners didn't clean their guns properly or in a timely manner.

I have found from 50 years of shooting B/P stuff that John Q Publick doesn't know squat about cleaning a M/L. I shot Pyrodex, I cleaned and oiled my gun if I shot it. Back in the day we usually shot our rifles to empty them on the way back to the truck after dark and cleaned them when we got home. At the end of deer season, I would put my cleaned and oiled rifle up until the following year, I never had a speck of rust.

Shoot what you want to shoot, clean your rifle properly, dry and oil the bore before you put it up, you won't have any problems.

There are always a bunch of naysayers posting on this type of topic. All of you naysayers that shot substitutes then properly cleaned and oiled your firearm and still had the sub ruin your barrel, raise your hand and tell us about it.   

I had a friend that wanted me to look at his gun, it wasn't grouping well for him, he shot Pyrodex. He had obviously shot his gun and put it up dirty although he claimed he had put his rifle up clean, NO WAY. I sent it to Bobby Hoyt for a re-bore.

[AZshot]

Pyrodex's problem isn't just cleaning.  It's got inconsistent velocities, doesn't generate much anyway.  I shot it some in muzzle loaders over 40 years ago, and it didn't rust anything.  But I didn't like it when learning.  Then about 20 years later shot it some more in a match, it did so bad I had to change my entire plan for the shoot and go with some BP someone loaned me.  If it works for you that's great.  Doesn't for me.

[alacran]

I remember when Pyrodex was first marketed and the ads ad the time implicated that it was clean and one need not worry about cleaning their guns.
I believed their marketing led to a lot of ruined guns.
I was given a pound of their 2f equivalent over 20 years ago. I tried it to see how it would perform. I figured I needed to have a baseline in case I would for some reason be unable to obtain Black Powder.  It performed well enough in a 50 caliber Hawken I had made with a Griffiths breech plug and a GRRW barrel.
What I found that I didn't like that it was way more difficult to clean than BP.
The load I suggested earlier, with ten grains of black powder ahead of the main charge was in an article written by Sam Fadala, in Black Powder Digest.  He recommended the sub load for all ML's both cap and flint.
Some consider Sam Fadala to be a muzzleloading expert.
I helped a friend a couple of years ago with his inline using pellets for the charge. They do not contain any Black powder at the base. Ignition is achieved a higher potency 209 primer than what is used for shotgun shells.
I had given a .45 caliber Hawken I built to my nephew. He had never shot it. I visited him and he was anxious to shoot it. I had mailed it to him with all the instructions and everything he would need except for caps and powder.
At any rate all we could find to shoot was 777. I read the instructions on the can, and it said that it was 15 % hotter than the equivalent grade of BP.
So I adjusted the known best load for the rifle to reflect that. I was surprised by the point of impact was the same at 50 yards as it was with BP.
As long as I can get black powder, that is what I will use. However I do know that in a pinch there is a suitable alternative.

[Eric Krewson]

I bought a black unmentionable for my wife to deer hunt with in the early 90s, it had a safety on it that I thought was necessary because she fell asleep in her treestand on a regular basis. The pellet thingies had dark black line on the bottom that the company said at the time was B/P, this model shot #11 primers, again this was in the early 90s. She hunted with the gun for 17 years and died of cancer in 2013. I don't care for unmentionables so after her death I traded it for a TC Renegade with a custom fitted Sharron barrel that was not a stock TC Sharron barrel.

The gun would shoot a sub minute of angle group at 100yards and still does 30 years later, the guy I traded it to is top ranked B/P shooter (Bruce McKelvy) but likes scoped things to deer hunt with in his old age. He does shoot triple 7 in a lot of his competitions so it must be good for something.

There has never been a speck of rust or corrosion on this gun but it has been properly cleaned from day one.

Thankfully I bought what is a lifetime supply of B/P for me just before Goex became unavailable, I don't plan on shooting subs anytime soon but I don't run down those who do.

[TDM]

OK

I just finished my .50 pistol.    Only have half a can (pound) of "real" 3F  black powder.   Do have a couple pounds of triple-7 and Pyrodex.    Use the Triiple-7 and pyrodex in my percussion hawken.

Big question?    Would a 50/50 cocktail of BP/Triple-7 or BP/Pyrodex be more likely to be ignited by the Flintlocks flash than pure Triple-7 or Pyrodex?

Would there be any safety/social rules that woud be broken by giving this a try?

While on this topic, has anyone who has successfully used pure Triple-7 or Pyrodex in a flinter?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

BTW:  LIve in NE KS, so don't have easy access to the muzzle loader events in Ohio and the east coast. (where presumably, I might be able to pick up real BP) .   

BTW II:  If any other ALR members in Kansas or Southern Nebraska have a good source (or have a can or two of 2F or 3F to sell) please PM me!

My advice is to place an order from Graf & Sons or Powder Inc. for real BP. If you can afford it, order a selection of 4F(one lbs is enough), 3F, and 2F. If money is short just order a few pounds of 3F, you can use that for your main charge and prime. You’ll have more success and enjoyment with your new pistol using real BP.

[19112tap]

I just got my order from Graf last night they are have a free Hazmat if you order over $150 so I picked up another 7 pounds of there house brand.

[hanshi]

I started with muzzleloaders - cap and flint - long before the substitute powders were developed.  There was nothing to shoot in any kind of muzzleloader (blue matchheads excepted.   

I shot BP for years and when the subs became available I ignored them.  A few years ago a friend gifted me a couple of cans of pyrodex about 3/4 full.  I decided to test it in my C&B revolver.  The velocities were all over the place and the accuracy was poor indeed.  I poured the rest of it out.  The only thing used in my guns is real BP; this is partly because nearly all of them are flintlocks.  Don't know anything about 777 but word on the street says it is better than Pyrodex.  I placed an order with Graf's about 2 years ago and the price then was very reasonable, and that was fortunately before the craziness hit town.  If the subs are all that's available to you then that's what you can use.

[Paul from KY]

I have been shooting muzzleloaders and percussion revolvers since 1981, and I always used Pyrodex back in those days. The rifles shot pretty well, but the performance from the cap and ball pistols was poor.  I was fanatical about doing a through cleaning right after shooting and never had any rust issues.  As another poster said, Pyrodex was originally marketed as something that didn't require immediate cleaning after use.  When I tried genuine black powder, I was an instant convert.  Real BP cleans easier and gives better performance at the range... and you can use it in flintlocks with no hassles.