Author Topic: Missing entire target on 3rd shot  (Read 3536 times)

Offline boson

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Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« on: June 09, 2023, 08:44:04 PM »
I was checking the sights on my Bill Large .54 Hawken on Monday. I shot 3 rds. at 50 yds. into a satisfactory group.  ( 50 grs. 3f swiss, pillow tick patch cut at muzzle ( .021" ) .530 " round ball, Hoppes #9+ lube.  Went to 75 Yds., increased same powder to 55 grs. and first two shots were dead on to point of aim.  The 3rd shot didn't even hit the 4'X5' board holding the target. Don't know where it went. I fired another and it hit approximately 5" left of aiming point.  The 5th shot was back in the first two's group.  I found all patches ( which were in good shape ) EXCEPT  # 3.  My question is it probable or possible the patch stuck to # 3 and caused the shot to go off of the target and backboard ?  I've not experienced this before and hope some of you can offer an explanation. I had no spotter to help so couldn't see where # 3 went.  Thanks

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2023, 09:29:34 PM »
If you've eliminated the possibility of it going through one of the first two holes, then I would ask who cast/made the balls? Perhaps a big void or other flaw made #3 light and off-balance and it flew accordingly. I'm a bit weird and sort balls by weight regardless of who makes them--extra lights go back into the pot.

I had problems with some store-bought balls once and found them to not even be round! WAY out of spec. They will be re-cast sooner or later--and that biz has changed hands, so there is no point in naming it.

I don't think any patch ever sticks to a ball, but I'm not a long-time roundball shooter yet.

Idea: record your solo sessions with video for self-spotting after the fact.

Hold to the Wind

Offline boson

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2023, 09:38:32 PM »
Thanks for the reply Wade.  I cast and weigh my muzzle loading balls and also weigh my BPCR bullets.  I don't have the camera and whatever to video myself shooting.

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2023, 09:43:09 PM »
Sounds like a one time thing to me. I doubt it will happen again. I would keep working on load development
Dan

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Offline ScottH

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2023, 09:49:11 PM »
gremlins.....    ;)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2023, 09:53:46 PM »
 I’d be much more inclined to check my patching material, and my patch lube. I had an old timer laugh at me when I told him about balls being out of round, and voids in the ball. He loaded up his ball bag with my rejects and then went out and beat me like a red headed stepchild.
 Beings it a Bill Large barrel, I would check the rifling, because Bill was mighty fond of Forsyth style rifling with wide grooves with narrow lands. They require a tighter patch, and a little more powder. Oh, and when you find the sweet load, they shoot bvery wheel.

Hungry Horse

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2023, 10:13:29 PM »
Consistency is the name of the game. In your load itself and in your shooting style/technique. I would try more powder first.

Offline HSmithTX

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2023, 12:10:10 AM »
I just posted this elsewhere but it might fit here as well....

If you have a CO2 unloader or an air compressor load and then unload a couple balls into a box full of towels, if you don't want to waste powder load them on a  wad of tissue and use the same compression you would on powder.  I did this and found out I was being really really hard on the ball during loading.  It also reinforced the need to mark the ramrod for me, that way I am sure the ball is seated without putting unneeded pressure on it. I was shocked how easily the ball is damaged during loading and seating. 

Offline Jeff Murray

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2023, 04:39:51 AM »
Could be some drift in your sight picture or a little flinch as well on the errant shot.  Sometimes it is hard to recognize a small flinch or a blade/notch drift unless you film your shots.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2023, 12:45:05 AM »
Two days ago, I was helping a friend sight in his new-to-him flint rifle.  It too is a .54 cal, and he had swaged .530" balls and commercial ticking pre-cut patches that according to the vendor were .018" thick.  From a bench rest, his first two shots were touching each other in the two inch black bull's eye at 25 yards.  I said to him, "looks like it's sighted in already!"  Then his third shot was ten inches low and two inches left, followed by a forth that was worse.  I asked him if I could load the next shot, his fifth, and he agreed.  Using a steel range rod with a 3/8" drill rod shaft, I had to pound the ball down the bore through a fouling build up with way too much force.  At the shot, I watched for the patch, and recovering it found it to be completely burnt and shredded.  I cleaned the rifle with a jag and cotton flannel using water, and removed the black soup from the bore.  Then, I got out five patches of my own MEASURED cotton denim material, 8 oz, at .018" thick, and we loaded again.  This ball went through the bull's eye touching the other two balls, and the rifle continued to shoot like this for as long as we wanted to shoot, without cleaning.  He wanted to try his patches again, and wet them more thoroughly but again, the bore fouled and his accuracy went for a @#$%/!!.  To demonstrate the difference in the two patch materials, I held up two patches, his and mine, to the sky.  You could clearly see through his patch.  This tells me that his patch material is not up to the job, and he will need to acquire some proper material and cut his own patches, both easy to do.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline boson

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2023, 10:05:04 PM »
DTS, interesting post, thanks. Found 5 previously shot patches and they were perfect.  This is why I think the patch may have stuck to the ball and threw the shot off the target board.  I'll experiment with different lubes and see how it goes.  Thanks for all the responses.  Bob

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2023, 04:52:20 AM »
I hesitate to even suggest this, but, when balls and bulls behave this way and all other possibilities have been exhausted then the problem is usually a flinch.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline alacran

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2023, 12:51:44 PM »
If I got this right, you only shot a total of five shots. You went from 50 yards to seventy-five yards and increased your charge by 5 grains.
In my opinion a three-shot group is meaningless. If I was checking my sights, in relationship to my loads I would probably shoot at least ten balls.
A five grain increase in powder is insignificant. I would have shot way more balls at 75 yards to see what I was doing wrong. Don't think it is the load or the rifle. Unless you used superglue for a patch lube the patch is not going to get stuck to the ball.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline longcruise

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2023, 05:45:30 PM »
Quote
This is why I think the patch may have stuck to the ball and threw the shot off the target board.

I agree with alacran.  The rpm of the ball is going to flare the patch immediately upon leaving the Muzzle and the force of the air going by the ball will for sure sweep it off.   In dead still air my patches usually land within 20 feet of the Muzzle.
Mike Lee

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2023, 06:17:07 PM »
Three shot groups? Two kinda close together and one off some distance. So is that two close to sights and one flyer or one close and two fliers? Or something in between? I like to shoot so 10 shot groups when working up loads and sighting in is what I try for.

Online Bill Raby

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2023, 06:55:01 PM »
   So shooting is going pretty good, then for some reason a ball just flies off to parts unknown. That sounds pretty normal to me.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2023, 08:08:54 PM »
A 1-up instance on so few shots with ball, patch &powder combination that is, in my humble opinion not suitablefor the job, is very difficult to diagnose.
More shooting at 50 yards to start with, using a minimum of 75gr.  maybe 85gr. of 2F, checking patches, etc - imho they must be reusable to have done their job - then critique the process.
I had to use 65gr. 3F in my .40 for 50 yd. ACCURATE shooting. 50 or 55gr. Might be OK for 25 yards, as about anything shoots well at that range.
Daryl

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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2023, 09:25:25 PM »
it either a flinch or your sights are loose in the barrel - :(
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2023, 01:20:36 AM »
I would claim it went through one of the first holes 😀

Offline recurve

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2023, 05:16:53 PM »
failed patch/ lube  try 10oz denim   

Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2023, 04:25:03 AM »
Will a .535 ball slip into the muzzle end without a patch? When it comes to barrels, this is my first test don't care what caliber the barrel is.
I have found time and time again, just go with the ball that just fits the bore first. Then patch up from there
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Offline boson

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2023, 04:02:13 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.  I shoot a silhouette match ( all offhand ) monthly with this rifle and have sighted it in at the 50, 75 and 100 yard distances the targets are set at. The charges stated hit point of aim at the above distances off the bench and when my flier happened, I was double checking my loads for the above distances and therefore didn't think 10 shots at each distance was necessary.  Since my flier happened, I have shot 3 matches and did reasonably well at each distance with no fliers.  Must have been a gremlin that day and at this point I no longer worry about it.  Thanks again for all the replies. Bob

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2023, 07:20:03 PM »
Most of those shooting Gremlins are invisible starting out and as they age they learn to hide. The only way to get them out in the open so you can deal with them is to shoot a lot of groups.
When it gets serious I like to shoot 5 shots to the group.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2023, 07:25:20 PM »
Me too, Darkhorse
Daryl

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Offline alacran

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Re: Missing entire target on 3rd shot
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2023, 03:43:10 PM »
I can hold back no longer. To attribute a flyer to some mysterious force or unbeknown technical issue, and not to the shooter, boggles my mind.
As well as diagnosing an errant shot from a total of 5 shots.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass