.45 hunting load

[jim m]

am going to use my .45 for deer this year. get good target results with 55grns of 3f.  what's your hunting load in a .45. particulars are a 36" green mtn. barrel, and am using .18 pillow ticking and a .445 ball. I know I will have to test the load in my gun, just looking for a good starting point.

[Dphariss]

My son killed his first deer with a 36" GM 45 loaded with 45 gr of FFFG. Its a little light but it was a one shot killl so 55 gr should be fine.

Dan

[rich pierce]

That's a good load for deer to 75 yards.

[Mike R]

I use 65 gr fffg and a .445 ball in my 42" barreled .45 for deer hunting.  It shoots 1" groups or less at 50 yds, which for my old eyes is good shooting...and it has a pretty flat trajectory, I figure ~ 1900 fps MV. 

[Daryl]

My accuracy load is my hunting load in my Green Mountain 60" twist .45 longrifle barrel. A couple years ago, 70gr. 3F GOEX with a LehighValley lubed .020" patch .445" ball proved to be the accuracy load and it still is.  Recently, I put 8 shots into 1" with it at 50 yards, so I'm happy with the load. Switching to 2F, I need 80gr., which gives the same point of impact & accuracy at 50 yards. I haven't chronographed these, but they should be travelling just over 2,000fps muzzle velocity.

I would consier either to be a very good deer load, but not sure I'd go after 300 pound muley with it. A .50 would be much better, I think.

[roundball]

My .45cal deer hunting load in a TC 32" x 1:66" Flint barrel is:

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke prelubed wad
.018" TC precut/prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady .440"/128grn ball

Kills them dead.

[Dphariss]

My .45cal deer hunting load in a TC 32" x 1:66" Flint barrel is:

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke prelubed wad
.018" TC precut/prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady .440"/128grn ball

Kills them dead.

It would be interesting to see if the increase from about 65 gr to 90 produces much velocity gain in this barrel length. I would think that once over about 60-70 grains velocity increase for grain of powder really falls off.
But this does not mean the heavier load would not shoot better.
The formula that someone (don't have his name handy) figured out points to about 60 grains as all that will really go much work in a 32" barreled 45.
I ran this formula on my 30"  .66 caliber and found that the charge weight the formula gave was about where the velocity gain really started down hill with FFG Swiss. I still shoot 20-25 grains more powder since it gives the velocity I want.

Dan

[northmn]

I used to shoot a 45 a lot in matchs and never saw any big advantages over about 70 grains of 3f.  When you look at the deceleration rates of higher velocities you do start to wonder.  We use what works for us.  If 90 grains has taken deer it would be a good load.  Although personally I would max out at about 70 grains as that does seem to be a performance peak. Daryl's point is also in that deer vary so much in size that it depnds somewhat on what you may see.  A midwest grain fed buck is a little bigger than a Coues deer in Arizona by 100 pounds or so.

DP

[roundball]

There are often a lot of anecdotal comments on web sites, and as we all know they are rarely ever applicable across the board...and many are just old wives tales that get retold year after year.  Test equipment eliminates all the guessing and anecdotal adivce.
Listed below are the actual facts regarding my .45cal velocities from 70-100grns:
======================================================= 

T/C .45cal 15/16” x 32” Flint barrel x 1:66” round ball twist
.018" T/C NL1000 pillow ticking and Hornady .440 balls
Wiped the bore after every shot
Pact Pro MK5 Chronograph at 15 feet
Goex 3F powder charges
Average velocity rounded off to nearest 5 fps

70grns = 1590 fps
80grns = 1720 fps
90grns = 1805 fps
100grns = 1870 fps

[longcruise]

Great stats roundball.  And while it clearly shows a diminshing return in velocity, the gain is still substantial.  The most "efficient" use of powder doesn't always result in the most practical load for the shooter's application!

[roundball]

Yeah...there's theory, and conjecture, and probability ratings, and some my friend's 2nd cousin on his step-father's side said he knew a guy once who was at a bar talking to a...yadda, yadda, yadda...


And there are simply the facts.
 

[T*O*F]

Listed below are the actual facts regarding my .45cal velocities from 70-100grns:

Actual tests done by Thompson Center

http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/tc50bal.htm

[roundball]

I assume those were done with a caplock to get every possible fps they could for the best possible advertising...I actually have the same exact .45cal barrel in a caplock and as soon as I can get time to do it, run a comparison series through the chronograph to see first hand what loss there actually is due to the vent of a Flintlock.  I've heard all sorts of differences like 100 fps difference, 200 fps difference, etc...but I want to run the tests and see first hand

[northmn]

Its best to do the test first hand as you say.  The 1590 for 70 grains of 3f seems slow.  In fact all the velocities seem low compared to what I have seen printed elsewhere.  Might have to find ball for my wifes rifle and try it through my chronograph as hers is a 32 inch flinter.

DP

[T*O*F]

I assume those were done with a caplock to get every possible fps they could for the best possible advertising

Caplock...yes and 1/48 twist with Goex 3fg as I recall.

Don't know about advertising, but as you said earlier, "test equipment eliminates all the guessing and anecdotal advice".....regardless of who does the testing.

[Candle Snuffer]

I use 65 gr fffg and a .445 ball in my 42" barreled .45 for deer hunting.  It shoots 1" groups or less at 50 yds, which for my old eyes is good shooting...and it has a pretty flat trajectory, I figure ~ 1900 fps MV. 

Same load I use in my 36 & 42 inch barreled ML's.  I've found it to be a good load, though there is no reason a 55 grain load won't work.  I like that extra 10 grains, it's seems to tighten the group a bit more in these
1 in 60 twist Green Mnt Barrels.

[northmn]

Roundball results got me curious so I took out my wifes flintlock I built for her with a 32 inch barrel I picked up from Dixie in the 80's. 1-48 inch twist.  The Chrony was tested against 22 LR as recommended and gave velocities close to published.

Flintlock 4 f priming
Sorry Rich it already had an English flint in it.
Ball .451
Patch: .15 PT
Lube: Some kind of yellow stuff came on patching,  CVA?
Powder charge 70 grains  Measure was tested against a powder scale.
Ave Vel 1791
Total variance 40fps

90 Grains
Same stuff
Ave Vel 1977
Variance 90 fps.

I used the 451 ball because I would have had to cast 445, but they loaded very easy in the rifle.  I included the total variance as that is also what you might expect with heavier charges.  I wiped between shots with one spit patch and a dry patch such that the barrel loaded very easy in all shots.   You gain 200 fps with 90 grains in that rifle, but with its 48 inch twist I doubt if it would hit a barn.  Also note that the difference is less than the TC published data.  1791 would be adequate for deer at close range, and at a 100 yards the difference might be less than 100 fps between the two.

Not trying to say who is right or wrong Roundball I just got curious because the data didn't seem right to me.  Actually at close range in a strong rifle, you are correct the 90 grain charge does offer an advantage.

DP

[roundball]

"...with its 48 inch twist I doubt if it would hit a barn..."
 

Makes me think of something I'd like to share, so this is not a direct response to your comment, it just reminded me of some tests I ran.   I've accumulated a number of TC Hawkens over the years...have sets of TC rifles both in caplock and flintlock, including sets in each caliber, and in both 1:48" and 1:66" twist barrels...so I was able to conduct head to head tests a couple summers ago.  The tests were to see how well the time honored statement "1:48" twists don't shoot PRBs accurately with max loads" that we've heard repeated for years, would hold up and as I already knew they are extremely accurate.

Three consecutive Saturdays I tested three calibers .45/.50/.54, one caliber per Saturday, shooting the same loads in both the .1:48" and the 1::66" within a few minutes of each other so all components, weather, shooter, etc were as identical as humanly possible...all 6 rifles were TC Flintlocks with the new style locks, and all rifles used:

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke prelubed wads over powder
.018" TC precut/prelubed pillow ticking patches
Hornady balls (.440/.490/.530)
All groups were shot at 100yds from a solid bench
All groups from all rifles were 2+3/4" or less
The smallest group was from a .54cal x 1:48" twist measuring 1+7/8"

While I like a little bit longer barrel than TC's standard 28" version for the benefit of weight, sighting plane, and yes even looks...there is no question that 28" x 1:48" twist TC barrels shoot PRBs extremely well with powerful loads.

NOTE:
Twist is caliber sensitive...and for example, the 1:48" twist is actually the round ball twist for the .40cal...and is basically the same for the .45cal which is only an eyelash or two larger.

If someone had shuffled the targets together and asked me to separate the 1:48" twist targets from the 1:66" targets I'm not sure I could have done it as they were all so close...a competition shooter might notice a difference but it wouldn't be all that much...certainly nothing at all of the magnitude to support what we hear repeated so much..."that 1:48" twists don't shoot PRBs accurately with large powder charges".

Again, just sharing the results in general for what they are worth, from some personal hands on experience with one vendor's set of rifle barrels, calibers, and twists on 3 weekends one summer two years ago.

[northmn]

Usually the TC is also critisized because the twist is shallower than the typical RB twist.  I have seen some pretty good shooting with a TC.  One individual at Grand Forks many years ago cleaned a lot of clocks with a TC hawken including custom rifles.  Original hawkens were both 1-48 and 1-60. None were particularly slower twists as made today.  I figured when I made that comment I would get the usual response "you don't know until you try it" which is correct.  90 grs of GOEX 3f  (I forgot to mention that) was not all that pleasant to shoot out of that rifle either.  The rifle did show a tendency to start to scatter shots a bit with the 70 grain charge when we used it.  I wonder if the data you posted was not out of a 28 inch barrel.  The 4 inch difference may explain the differences?  As for a deer loads either would work.

DP

[roundball]

The chronograph data was out of a TC .45cal x 32" x 1:66" RB barrel...

Yes, the extra few inches of weight all the way out front helps with muzzle wander and recoil.
One of the things I did in the early years with the 28" barrels was to replace TC's factory wooden ramrods with 3/8" solid brass ramrods...in addition to them being unbreakable they added another pound or so out under the barrels...made all the difference in the world in terms of improving off hand accuracy and practically eliminating recoil...

[Dphariss]

Roundball results got me curious so I took out my wifes flintlock I built for her with a 32 inch barrel I picked up from Dixie in the 80's. 1-48 inch twist.  The Chrony was tested against 22 LR as recommended and gave velocities close to published.

Flintlock 4 f priming
Sorry Rich it already had an English flint in it.
Ball .451
Patch: .15 PT
Lube: Some kind of yellow stuff came on patching,  CVA?
Powder charge 70 grains  Measure was tested against a powder scale.
Ave Vel 1791
Total variance 40fps

90 Grains
Same stuff
Ave Vel 1977
Variance 90 fps.

I used the 451 ball because I would have had to cast 445, but they loaded very easy in the rifle.  I included the total variance as that is also what you might expect with heavier charges.  I wiped between shots with one spit patch and a dry patch such that the barrel loaded very easy in all shots.   You gain 200 fps with 90 grains in that rifle, but with its 48 inch twist I doubt if it would hit a barn.  Also note that the difference is less than the TC published data.  1791 would be adequate for deer at close range, and at a 100 yards the difference might be less than 100 fps between the two.

Not trying to say who is right or wrong Roundball I just got curious because the data didn't seem right to me.  Actually at close range in a strong rifle, you are correct the 90 grain charge does offer an advantage.

DP

This velocity is closer to what I expected.
But remember not all lots/cans of GOEX are equal.
I need to run the kids 45 over the chrono and my 54. With 90 gr of Swiss FFFG the 54 was doing over 1800 (38") but I have not checked it with my 22 lately either. Its pretty old to boot. I think the 54 has a cupped breech too and this increases velocity to some extent.
With the proper groove depth for a PRB the 48 twist will shoot very well even in 50 and 54 cals.
One of the best shooting rifles I ever had was a 48" twist Douglas .50 using 90 gr. of FFFG.

Dan

[longcruise]

The 4 inch difference may explain the differences?  As for a deer loads either would work.

Another aside on this matter of barrel length/velocity.  Several years back I tested a tc .54 cap gun directly against Lyman GPR cap gun.  The load was identical in every respect;  cap, ball, patch, lube and charge of goex 2f.  If memory serves it was a 100 grain charge.

The 28 inch TC shot a bit over 100 fps faster than the 32 inch Lyman.

The only difference observed was that the load was quite a bit tighter in the tc barrel due apparently to it's slightly smaller bore.

[northmn]

I looked at my old Lyman book at the ballistics chart in back.  One of the arguements against heavier charges was that of retained velocity.  At 2000 fps they show a 445 going at 1066 and at 1800 at 990.  The arguement used to be that after about 1800 fps. you do not gain enough down range to make the extra boom worth while.  However at 50 yards the difference was 148 fps, 1456 to 1308.
70 grain charges in a 45 were assumed to exceed 1800.  What the opinions on this issue boil down to is at what range are you shooting deer? How strong is your rifle? What is your personal philosophy?  The Lyman manual also lists their loads much faster than my results with a 32 inch barrel, with the 70 grain load at 1970.  This is not the first time I have seen differences between a loading manual and a chronograph.  (They are really enlightening with the new fangled smokeless loads).


DP

[Daryl]

Well, dagnabbit, now I'm going to have to chronograph my .45 barrel - after hefley, I guess.  1,795fps from a 70gr. 3F charge in a .45 flinter seems a bit light to me.  Could be caused by an oversized vent causing sub-standard velcoities.
: I am thinking in terms of my .40 flinter delivering 1,795fps with 55gr. 2F while 70gr. (might have been 75gr.) delivers 2,160fps, bit faster than 65gr. 3F)  I just can't visulalize the .40 with a 94gr. ball getting 2,150fps. with 65gr. 3F, but a 125gr. .45 with 70gr.3F only getting roughly 1,800fps.  Of course, my barrel is a mite longer at 42" - but the differences do seem excessive even considering that.
; yes- willhave to get out the "merciless extractor of truth" and do some testing myself

[northmn]

Daryl, the vent is a standard 1/16" vent that seems to take a drill bit tightly.  Its an old stainless steel insert.  When I get time I want to do more chronographing and print them for interest. Maybe I do not seat the ball with enough pressure or too much, who knows?  I have seen chronographed loads for suppository guns vary so much that you wonder if the manual didn't get their calibers mixed up. The one thing I did like about Fadala's manual is that he did chronograph a few different rifles.

DP