What Can You Tell Me About This Flintlock?

[Tanselman]

I picked up this flintlock years ago when I started collecting American longrifles and didn't know much about locks. It looks like a good quality English lock with the script name "Tyrer" engraved on the face. There is a roller on the base of the frizzen that is hard to see and smaller than the roller on the frizzen spring. Can anyone date this lock? It looks too fancy to use on an American rifle. Any information would be appreciated. Lock plate is 4-5/8" long.

Shelby Gallien

[rich pierce]

Could be Tyver?

[wormey]

Looks to me like it came off a high quality English double shotgun. Wormey

[Mike Brooks]

Post 1820. English of course.

[Feltwad]

Provincial maker James Tyrer  shop at Kent Street  Liverpool Lancs  1803-1811 the lock would have been from  a  Birmingham lock maker  with Tyrer  name  and engraving added  by the local engraver for  Tyrer . the gun maker The lock could have been on a sxs sporting gun and a top quality lock
Feltwad

[Bob Roller]

If I were still doing this I would see about copying the mechanism.Not likely now but it would have been an interesting project and even more so if successful.Thanks for showing one more top of the line lock.
Bob Roller

[Feltwad]

Provincial maker James Tyrer  shop at Kent Street  Liverpool Lancs  1803-1811 the lock would have been from  a  Birmingham lock maker  with Tyrer  name  and engraving added  by the local engraver for  Tyrer . the gun maker The lock could have been on a sxs sporting gun and a top quality lock
Feltwad

Not even a thank you
Feltwad

[Clowdis]

Has nothing to do with the OP but I'm having trouble understanding how the fly works with this tumbler and sear.

[Mike Brooks]

Provincial maker James Tyrer  shop at Kent Street  Liverpool Lancs  1803-1811 the lock would have been from  a  Birmingham lock maker  with Tyrer  name  and engraving added  by the local engraver for  Tyrer . the gun maker The lock could have been on a sxs sporting gun and a top quality lock
Feltwad

Not even a thank you
Feltwad

Really? I didn't get one either. :'(

[smylee grouch]

THANK YOU FELTWAD AND THANK YOU MIKE. 

[Mike Brooks]

THANK YOU FELTWAD AND THANK YOU MIKE. 

I wouldn't ever expect a thank you for information but thanks anyway!

[Tanselman]

To everyone whom I've offended by not responding in timely manner, thank you for your information.

At times I post items I think will be of interest to others and will generate conversations on the thread... but it usually takes a question or two to get the responses going. This was one of those items, a neat piece I thought others might find interesting based on prior discussions here, but not a piece that fits my collecting or major interest areas... so it was out there more for the enjoyment of others than actually for me... and I didn't watch the responses that closely. Thanks for the information on the lock; it will come in handy some day when I swap it for a junkier lock for one of my frontier rifles made down in Kentucky.

Thanks again,  Shelby Gallien

[Bob Roller]

Feltwad,
Your postings are appreciated more than you will know.Most Americans have little appreciation for this level of craftsmanship and those
English lock filers were showing a contempt for low end work.The late Australian Master Engraver Lynton McKenzie got me interested in these locks and would loan on request any of these he owned and even removed one from an Alex Henry target rifle and then another from a Rook Rifle plus a Rigby and by paying close attention to the smallest details I was able to copy them and in 1987 I made and sold the first "4 pin"
Stanton copy. Others followed,no big numbers but no complaints either.A builder of Schuetzen rifles in Germany was sent one of my Schuetzen locks with the "3 pin" Stanton mechanism and I made a good number of them for several years,He called the bridle "Der Kreuzstudel"(Kroits stool"). Getting paid for labor intense and fancy locks is not easy and were made only on request.I did make 4 of the Alex Henry's for of all places,Dixie Gun Works and was paid full price when they were done.The buyer was Hunter Kirkland,Turner'son.
Bill Roberts,Jim Westerberg and myself made these on a limited basis and I never heard of one of them doing it on request.
The flintlock shown here is not a complex internal pattern and the tumbler is a style that has a specific,wider area for the fly or it may not have a fly for use with a single trigger. I hope this isn't too boring.
Bob Roller                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

[Daryl]

Well met, Bob. Certainly do appreciate you, your guns and your information, Feltwad.
You too bob, I guess.  All 3 you guys are nifty & vital to the forum. (IMOH) & any more of course.

[dadybear1]

STILL A BEAUTIFUL LOCK-----

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tanselman:  are you certain that there is an additional roller on the toe of the frizzen?  It appears to me from the photo that that toe is simply filed into a circular bit that would work well with the roller on the frizzen spring.  I have never seen a flintlock with rollers on BOTH the frizzen and the spring.

[Tanselman]

After the above comment, I looked more closely at the base of the frizzen, and there is no smaller roller. The frizzen's base is filed into an almost perfectly round end that rides against the roller on the frizzen spring. It looks like another roller when the frizzen is open, but when closed it's obvious that its an integral part of the frizzen.

Shelby Gallien

[Feltwad]

After the above comment, I looked more closely at the base of the frizzen, and there is no smaller roller. The frizzen's base is filed into an almost perfectly round end that rides against the roller on the frizzen spring. It looks like another roller when the frizzen is open, but when closed it's obvious that its an integral part of the frizzen.

Shelby Gallien

That is correct  it was common by some Birmingham lock makers and I have common across it many times
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

Clowdis,
I am sure there will be no fly in this lock.
I believe what you are seeing is the relieved sections of the tumbler and scear.
Relieved in this manner with wide bearing surfaces is quite common on better locks of the period.

This image is of one of mine from about 1815.

All the best,
Richard.

[Bob Roller]

Another master lock filers show of contempt for substandard work.I have decided to finish a lock I consider as substandard and it will be a close copy of a J&S Hawken lock using the Morgan plate and hammer and marked J&S Hawken and cast into the plate.no half cock per the original and the only safety will be the checkering on the hammer.I will post on THIS forum when it's ready for sale.Been on the bench since 2019.
Bob Roller

[Clowdis]

Pukka;
Thank you! Much clearer now.

[Tanselman]

Here is a better picture of the sear and tumbler in the lock I posted, in case it helps anyone for comparisons.

Shelby Gallien

[Pukka Bundook]

Its interesting the top end of the stirrup is attached using a screw, Shelby.
It would look well cleaned up.   

[Bob Roller]

Its interesting the top end of the stirrup is attached using a screw, Shelby.
It would look well cleaned up.   

That screw makes it an easy installation.The split tumbler arm is OK but the double ended link takes time.
Been there and done that on repair job on a Brazier caplock for a German shooter years ago.
Bob Roller

[Pukka Bundook]

Indeed Bob!
I have made the same stirrup, and it really cuts into your day, LOL!