Author Topic: Possible Brown Bess find? CORRECTED DATE! (Read 2178 times)

Bigmon · « **on:** July 06, 2023, 03:43:33 PM »

I been told of the whereabouts of what they believe to be an old Bess, lock marked 1728 TOWER, full length stock and barrel, and complete, yet beat up, as I would expect.
The owner wants to sell it and I have his number to call and am hoping to go check it out?
My cousins have seen it and tell me it is a BB and has a large broad arrow on the stock as well as proofs on the barrel.
Owner is asking 2K. This seems reasonable to me if that is what it is?? Any suggestions of what I should look for? BBl length, other markings, RR should be wood??
Am I correct this would be a fair price?
Thanks to all??

JV Puleo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2023, 04:13:38 PM »

I suppose it depends on what you call a "Brown Bess" but with a date of 1828 it isn't a long, short or India pattern musket and it probably isn't even a flintlock. If it is a flintlock it probably isn't an Ordnance pattern gun and, to my mind doesn't come close to being worth half that asking price.

An Ordnance gun will have two proof stamps on the barrel...crowned crossed scepters and the Kings cypher with a crown. For 1828 it would be George IV but it will just be marked GR with a crown over it. But...bear in mind that, as they became obsolete, ordnance parts were sold off to private gunmakers to assemble all sorts guns for the trade so even ordnance proofs don't "prove" anything.

"Tower" on the lock means absolutely nothing.

If you post some photos you will get a more informed response. As it is, it's impossible to give you a realistic answer.

WESTbury · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2023, 04:20:50 PM »

If I were you, I would post some pictures.

The 1828 date does not sound correct and the rammer should be steel. Neither the Long Lands or Short Lands ( correction:the Short Lands were never dated) were dated on the lock after the early 1760's. The Pattern 1809, aka India Pattern Type II muskets were produced until Sept. 1815.

You may want to buy Mowbray's and Goldstein's book The Brown Bess before shelling out any cash.

ntqlvr1948 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2023, 04:28:26 PM »

Sounds like a lot of money for such a late gun even if it was in great condition. And it is probably not a flintlock

Bigmon · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2023, 04:55:43 PM »

CORRECTION!!
So sorry for the mistake. The lock is marked 1728, not 1828.
Man, I gets stupider and stupider as I age!1
Getting old is not for sissys!

Now, does hat date change mean anything???
Sorry, and thanks to all

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2023, 05:16:28 PM »

Were locks in 1728 being marked "Tower?" I always thought that locks that early were largely marked by individual contractors. FWIW, though, I am no Bess expert. For 2K it's either the deal of the century if real, or it may be a heavily 'antiqued' repro.

Steve Collward · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2023, 05:23:27 PM »

If 1728 is on the lock, you are now describing what may be a Long Land pattern musket. There should be a Crown over GR with a Broad Arrow on the lock plate. Barrel should be about 46". Photos would help.

WESTbury · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2023, 05:48:34 PM »

Quote from: Bigmon on July 06, 2023, 04:55:43 PM

CORRECTION!!
So sorry for the mistake. The lock is marked 1728, not 1828.

There are two locks, both marked TOWER, noted on pg18 of The Brown Bess by Goldstein & Mowbray, dated 1727 on one and 1728 on the other.

The barrel should be 46" +/- in length for a Long Land and originally, the rammer would have been wood.

120RIR · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2023, 06:15:18 PM »

According to Goldstein and Mowbray (The Brown Bess - An Identification Guide and Illustrated Study of Britain's Most Famous Musket: Mowbray Publishing, 2010), Bess locks marked as early as 1728 have been documented although the various contractor's marks are much more common on the "Pattern 1727" lock. Not to continue beating that horse, but without photos we're all in the dark and as Eric K. said, at $2k it's either a killer deal or a dud. Such an early long-land pattern Bess that's not a total train wreck or not messed with would be well into the five figures if real.

120RIR · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2023, 06:16:01 PM »

Sorry...I meant to say "Tower" locks marked 1728 have been noted.

ntqlvr1948 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2023, 06:22:48 PM »

Get pics...if it is the real deal it is a bargain at $2000 even if it is in bad condition

Bigmon · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:30:31 PM »

Much thanks to all. Sorry bout' that date mistake.
I just got the owners phone number and am going to call him to see if he can send photos. I have my doubts. My cousins say he is an older man and not in this digital age. Which may describe his asking price. If he has no photos I am going to try and meet him.
If I get pics I will send a few here.
It's funny, but this is not the first old Bess I have come across, and actually I have suspicion this may be the same one. Will know when I see it. If so, I have no doubt as to it's being the real thing.
I met a man some years ago that turned out to be my relative and he had this old Bess. He let me show Martin West at Ft Ligonier and Mr West was shocked and wanted it for the fort. It was not for sale.
But he died and his Son got everything. I have since lost track but there is less than 100 miles between the two owners, and how many can there be around here!? I do have a few photos of my find years back.

ntqlvr1948 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2023, 08:08:31 PM »

If that is the gun...BUY IT!

Bigmon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2023, 09:14:27 PM »

That's not it, at least I do not think so. But that is the type, so says my cousin. Who usually knows his way around old guns. But I will see?
Here are the last of the pics I have for this on from around 2010 when I took it to Ligonier.

ntqlvr1948 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2023, 11:43:58 PM »

Bigmon...if that is you holding that gun 13 years ago, I would think that by now you know everything there is to know about an early brown bess

120RIR · « **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2023, 12:32:24 AM »

Just an FYI...you probably wouldn't see that lock (the one in your photos) dated as early as 1728. That's a slightly later pattern 1730/40 version with a bridle on the pan according to Mowbray & Goldstein. Then of course, just like long rifles and maybe more so, military arms were re-worked, refurbished, and then re-worked again and again during their service lives so finding a nearly 300-year-old Bess that is 100% untouched would be beyond remarkable.

JV Puleo · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2023, 12:32:59 AM »

If that is the gun its well worth the asking price...

Bigmon · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2023, 02:02:26 AM »

Hi ya'all, and thanks for the comments. I just took a drive and met the owner of the supposed 1728 Bess. It turned out to be a wild goose chase, but I had to go and see. It was someones idea of a Bess, but certainly not even a good representation? I do not think and of the parts were actual original parts? I know, I should have taken some pics but my wife had our phone at the Dr's and besides, it was that bad.
Of course, might have given you all a good chuckle.
It looked like parts from one of those Indian Bess' but the wood didn't even look like walnut and it was all thick and heavy and mis-shapen. I think someone had parts and made the stock.
It had that early dated lock, yet metal RR and pipes, and the shorter barrel.
Oh, well. I needed to run the gas out of my truck I guess?, about a 70 mile round trip!!
But thanks all for the help. I really don't have any good books on the Bess and was in a hurry to check it out before someone else bought it, if it were correct.
Adios

WESTbury · « **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2023, 02:16:28 AM »

Bigmon,

Well that's okay, we will overlook this one.

Besides, you were able to the pulse rate of all of us other "old guys" above the low danger line!

smart dog · « **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2023, 03:40:29 AM »

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on July 06, 2023, 05:16:28 PM

Were locks in 1728 being marked "Tower?" I always thought that locks that early were largely marked by individual contractors. FWIW, though, I am no Bess expert. For 2K it's either the deal of the century if real, or it may be a heavily 'antiqued' repro.

Hi Eric,
It is not known for sure but it is believed that locks marked "Tower" and date were sent to the Tower by the contractor in a soft condition, engraved in the Tower and then case hardened. Locks accepted from the contractors in hardened condition were engraved with the contractor's name and date (up until 1764). It is generally believed that locks marker "TOWER" were of higher quality than those marked with the contractor's name. The date 1728 on the lock in question does not mean the musket was made in 1728. It means the lock was accepted by ordnance from the contractor in 1728. The musket could be made up to a decade later.

dave

dave

5judge · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2023, 03:58:31 AM »

Buy it, with a smile on your face. As to "Tower", here's my pre-Bess Colonel's musket dated (17)19 with a Tower lock....

ntqlvr1948 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 07, 2023, 02:13:35 PM »

5judge...send us some pics of that gun

5judge · « **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2023, 02:19:59 PM »

Shall start a new thread so as not to hijack this one with its outstanding find.

ntqlvr1948 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2023, 03:41:50 PM »

OK start a new one

Bigmon · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2023, 04:10:45 PM »

Thanks again everyone. At least I tried. Nothing ever accomplished without trying.
I thought it could be possible, since it had happened to me before?

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Author Topic: Possible Brown Bess find? CORRECTED DATE! (Read 2178 times)