Three brit lock questions

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm not as knowledgeable on the brit stuff as I probably should be.  So three questions:

(1) This lock is purported to be a sea service pistol lock.  It has a crown over GR of course, and there is a smaller crown under the pan with a "1" under it.  I was told this indicates a date of 1801?  oa length @ 5 3/8" or a little full.








(2) Tulip trade lock.  Marking is "W Allport," oa length is @ 5 3/4".  Anyone care to offer dating?  I'm thinking 1810-1820 but wondering if it could be a bit earlier.  I've not been able to completely verify the Allport family in terms of who was working where and when, although I think Birmingham?





(3) Ideas on original gun and dating of this sideplate? (BTW, it fits the Allport lock perfectly)

[JV Puleo]

Re the Allport lock. William Allport was the son of William Ketland's partner, James Allport. James Allport took over management of the company when WK died in 1803. This was specified in his will as was the stipulation that he pay WK's wife an annual stipend of £150. James Allport fell sick quite soon after and effective control of the company was in the hands of his son, William. When James died in 1816 the partnership automatically dissolved and William found himself out of a job because WK's widow turned control over to her brother, William Izon. It's quite clear that WK did not trust his brother-in-law and, as things eventually turned out, was right in that.

William Allport set up in business under his own name, hence the locks we often see marked "Allport late with Ketland & Co.". So...no W. Allport lock can pre-date 1816. Of course, these were all made in the B'ham trade, Neither the Allports or the Ketlands made locks. As an aside, the Allports had been neighbors of the Ketlands in Aldridge, the village outside Birmingham they came from and it is very likely that they had all known each other since childhood.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Thanks very much!

[smart dog]

Hi Eric,
I defer to Joe about the Allport lock.  The sideplate looks like those used on pattern 1760 Royal Forester's light dragoon pistols. It could be a copy of course and is a popular style use throughout the end of the 18th and into the 19th centuries.  The crown with number 1 is unknown to me.  That location was typically used for a stamp with a crown over an arrow indicating government ownership.  I doubt the stamp has anything to do with a date, rather the number might indicate a lock inspector's identification number.  The lock could be from a pattern 1801 sea service pistol that has been repurposed.  That straight line tail section border must have been added covering over the original border that went around the tail.  The crown markings look stamped not engraved indicating possible manufacture after 1801. 

dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

Thanks Dave.  Those crown markings do indeed look stamped - pretty certain that they are.

I figure the sideplate is earlier, and I know I've seen sideplates like it including the retaining screw hole, but can't really remember where at the moment.  I'm wondering if there were any common brit trade guns that used a sideplate like this?  It's definitely not pistol sized, so sized for a typical fusil or trade gun size lock.

[smart dog]

Hi Eric,
The sideplate for the Royal Forester's dragoon pistol is 5 1/8" long and the distance between lock bolt holes is 3 1/8".  It is about 1" wide at the rear lock bolt hole.

dave

[JV Puleo]

Sideplates like that are also seen on export fowlers albeit earlier (I think) than the Allport lock. I'd guess, if it came from a fowler, 1792-1795.

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks Dave.  Those crown markings do indeed look stamped - pretty certain that they are.

I figure the sideplate is earlier, and I know I've seen sideplates like it including the retaining screw hole, but can't really remember where at the moment.  I'm wondering if there were any common brit trade guns that used a sideplate like this?  It's definitely not pistol sized, so sized for a typical fusil or trade gun size lock.

Sideplates like this are very common on English mid-grade trade guns.  We've been working up a new fowler / trade gun kit and have three or four originals in hand to pull from.  We ended up using a sideplate very similar to this design.

Jim

[Mattox Forge]

I'm not as knowledgeable on the brit stuff as I probably should be.  So three questions:

(1) This lock is purported to be a sea service pistol lock.  It has a crown over GR of course, and there is a smaller crown under the pan with a "1" under it.  I was told this indicates a date of 1801?  oa length @ 5 3/8" or a little full.

That appears to be either a sea service or land service lock, probably a for pistol. The carbine and pistol locks were similar, but the carbine locks tended to have slightly thicker plates. The pistol locks with the short sear springs were from the 1777 pattern onwards. This is a flat plate, so it is probably from the 1790's or later. The crown over 1 is an ordnance inspector's stamp, and the 1 is just the inspector's number, not date associated with it.

Mike

[Eric Kettenburg]

Thanks for the added info Jim and Mike.

This lock is extremely stout with a very strong spring.  In fact, I'm surprised it was converted as-is (w/clearly original spring) and the tumbler left with original half/full cock notches, because it is far stronger than anything needed to pop a percussion cap.