Value of a Kentucky Boys rifle

[Doug Bowser]

I have a Kentucky Boy's rifle that a widow in my club wants to sell. It is flintloxck and I need to get an approximate value for the rifle. Email me at douglasmbowser@yahoo.com and I can send photos.

Doug

[nord]

Doug -
 
If you follow this ALR at all you'll notice that we don't mention values. There are some very good reasons for this policy...
 
1.     Even a hands-on valuation is subjective. Valuation via photos is worse than subjective.
 
2.    There is always the question of liability. Value a rifle too high or too low and it might come back to bite.
 
3.    Notice I just mentioned too high or too low? What if I were to value your rifle correctly and it happened to be one of those days
        where the stars aligned and a buyer offered double my estimate? Or how about the other way around?
 
What I'm getting at is that I could be holding your rifle in my hands and the best I could do for you is give you an estimated price range based upon prior experience. I could also come to you with cash in hand with the intention of possibly buying. If this was to be the case, then I'd have an upper range beyond which I'd pass on the deal and you'd probably have a low range below which you'd pass. Should those two ranges overlap we'd have a deal.
 
Bear in mind... Should I (or anyone) have purchased the rifle it could well sell for a totally different price ten minutes later.
 
Best,
 

[JTR]

Doug,
I agree with Nord about not mentioning values here on the forum. But if you can post some pictures of the rifle here, I imagine that a few guys might write you back on your email with a value range. Without pictures it's impossible to even venture a guess.
John

[Tanselman]

I have a different view on offering an opinion on approximate values of antique rifles, and think it is appropriate. The collecting fraternity is heavily based on gun values, and most of us purchase antique guns as both an enjoyable collectible, and also a way of investing our money and (hopefully) making a few dollars when we decide to sell. Current value heavily drives our decisions when we decide to purchase a new piece since we don't want to overpay, and we often pass over guns we like if we think they are priced too high. Conversely, we jump all over a gun that is under priced. This is simply part of our hobby, and an area of great concern for many people in this field, particularly those new to collecting or unfamiliar with particular types of antique guns.

With that in mind, value is important to all of us, whether we want to admit it or not. Yes, we all love the old guns for their merit, their beauty, their history, etc., but we always watch "value" when we add or subtract from our collections. It is a critical part of collecting, and an enjoyable part.

To shy away from offering an approximate value range for an antique gun, when we freely offer opinions about rifles and their merit ,or lack thereof, is a little hypocritical. Don't our opinions in the virtual museum impact value, or at least perceived value, of that piece? Haven't we discussed that point in that forum before? Everything we do here, or post here, has some impact on potential value. There are some comments attached to guns in the virtual museum that I take exception to, that could impact value in someone's eyes, but that is because different people have different opinions. Yet we offer and post our opinions there.

If our goal is education (I know we have clearly stated we do not buy,sell or support commercialism here), is not approximate value a major part of educating people who have no knowledge in that area? Certainly we should always say it is our opinion, and put it into an approximate "value range" with a brief explanation of how/why an item's value can vary based on personal opinions and personal desires, market conditions, etc. But value is a large part of what all of us do, a major issue with those less informed who need a starting point for their antiques, and those who don't know where else to go to get a value opinion. Do you want them to go to other internet sites to try to get an idea of value?

I think there is a "safety net" on a public forum if we offer approximtate values. If someone gives a foolish value, someone else will probably offer a different opinion and a reason for it. The process is educational for all of us, similar to our critiques of submitted guns, and should give the requestor a reasonable idea for a starting point to value his/her antique gun. Or should we "keep them in the dark" just in case we get a chance to buy their antique gun? Unfair comment? Not really.... I've seen a couple of nice guns get snapped up by readers here, like the great Dickert a year or two back when it was first exposed on this site.  Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

Snap, snap ,
Shelby, I agree with your view there as there isn't a lot of places for guys to get a good feeling for the value of these guns, but I thought it was a forum rule, and not just the Library rule, that prices shouldn't be mentioned?

In most respects, getting the values out in the public would be better for a seller, and probably get him a more realistic price. On the Dickert rifle, I know that some guys offered some ridiculously low ball offers in the hope of scooping the gun up, but in the end, the rifle ended up selling for a pretty fair price considering its condition. But had the value of the gun been discussed here in an honest way, it might have sold for even more.

Me, like you, and every other collector, are always looking for a good deal, because collecting generally not only involves buying , but selling also. And anyone that has done this for more than a few years has no doubt paid too much upon occasion, and also got a great deal from time to time. And making a few bucks on a sale to ease the cost of adding something new is part of the fun too!

Personally I don't hold the price I've paid for guns as some sort of national secret, and if there was some place in this forum to do it, I'd post pictures of the guns I have or have had and post the prices I paid. But that's just me, and I don't know if anyone else would follow suit, or if it would even be acceptable to do here.

Right now, the best indicators of value are auction results. But even those can be segued depending on the auction, how many and of what quality the kentucky's are, and how they compare to the plain or fancy rifle you might be trying to sell, or get a feel of value for.
Even Fladerman had problems with this in his price guides, as I seem to remember something like; Raised Carved Rifles, $10,000 to $35,000, or more. For the newby guy, which one is 10K, which one is 35K, and why is the one worth more, worth more?
Probably more to the point here for the new collector, or seller, would be what sort of gun is valued at a thousand bucks, and what sort of gun is valued at $5000, and why.

If some sort of valuation could be done here, I think some guys would be surprised at what a really good gun brings nowdays, but also and more importantly, how relatively inexpensively a decent example can be had for.

John

[Doug Bowser]

I was not trying to discuss the value of my rifle on the foirum. If you notice, I added my email for replies. I am just trying to sell a rifle for a young Widow. She has children and needs the money.I will try to get her as much as I can for this rifle.

Doug Bowser

[nord]

Gentlemen -

I forwarded a private mail to Doug. I shared with him that we each have opinions for what they might be worth and that I'd assist in any way possible as long as it was clear that I would not and could not be a part of any transaction that might result from the effort.

Nothing money-related has ever been discussed here on the public board as I recall. I believe this to be a good policy but defer to Dennis as to any final decision.

I'll be more than happy to forward photos to anyone requesting them should Doug send them to me. Replies through me will be cleaned of personal data so that identities are hidden and there can be no possible violation of ethics on the part of anyone involved.

[Tanselman]

Nord, You might recall the Dickert rifle I referenced earlier. It was discussed on this board, and several people voiced opionions as to its value, including myself when I thought the initial posted/response value was too low for the gun, and unfair to an untrained/unaware owner. That one is easy to remember because it was a great rifle, with great pictures. But I think there were also a couple of others where some sense of value was provided to the owner. We need to get a clear answer from Dennis Glazner on what he thinks is appropriate for his site as far as discussing value when asked by someone posting a request for such information.

I don't think filtering such requests through yourself is the permanent answer. Either we can discuss values in a reasonable manner, or we should avoid doing so with a clear posted comment to that effect for potential posters, to avoid future confusion on both ends. You know my preference.... more information is always better than less, but any clear cut decision is better than no decision.   Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

Nord,
After re-reading Dougs post, I don't see where he is asking anyone here to broker the rifle or take any personal or special interest in its sale, to discuss its value on the forum, or to create some sort of on-line sale, but simply to look at the pics sent by email, and reply to his email with a value range. If this is all done via personal email and not on this board, I don't see how any forum ethics can be involved or violated.

Actually I think this is the perfect place for Doug to ask given that a good number of collectors frequent this forum. If a handful reply to his email he'll end up with a good idea of the value of the rifle, and we would have been of some help.

I read his post early this morning and replied to his email address. If he sends the pictures I'll reply with my honest estimate of value without feeling I've violated forum ethics, or any other ethics for that matter, just simply one guy helping another.

John


 

[nord]

John -

I have no problem with that at all. Some may not feel the same way and I'll be happy to act as a middleman. The important part is that we help without tainting the site with commercialism.

Merry Christmas,

B

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

So keep the $$ talk off line, but it would sure be nice to see some ppictures of the gun..........

[keweenaw]

There is little I find more disgusting than a highly knowledgeable buyer taking advantage of a widow who needs money, but it happens every day.  When this happens, it isn't the buyer getting a good deal, it's a buyer stealing from a widow.  Personally I only offer advice on the value of pieces that I have no interest in buying.  It's far too easy to take advantage of someone otherwise.  When it comes to antique guns that can not easily be valued, my usually advice is for the owner to consign the piece to a reputable auction house.  Buy doing that at least they'll get a fair price.

Tom

[nord]

Photos available on Committee Forum.

[JTR]

Whoa,,,, maybe some guys need to take a deep breath here and not try to make something out of this that it isn't because not all collectors are crooks, scoundrels or widow robbers.

Doug, the poster, asked for estimates on the value of the gun and I personally have no problem with giving him an honest estimate. And told him in the email that I wasn't likely interested in buying it.
The rifle is a very nice upper Susq rifle with good value, and after a few more close-up pictures will give him my estimate of value. I already have 3 other upper river rifles and won't be making an offer on this one, but, if I did, my interest in it wouldn't make a bit of difference in my estimate of value.
Hopefully several other guys will write him and give him their estimate of value as well.

John

  

[Tanselman]

I asked and got better pictures of the patchbox and lock, and have offered an opinion on value. Fortuantely I don't collect these specific guns; unfortunately his gun has been worked on with a poorly pieced together "flint" lock installed, rough engraving added on patchbox lid, and barrel shortened at breech perhaps 6 or 7 inches. Still has decent value left with its nice inlays and wear plate, and neat lock bolt washers, but whoever buys it will need to have some work done on it to make it presentable, at least in my opinion. Shelby Gallien

[California Kid]

Photos available on Committee Forum.

Where is the comittee forum?

[nord]

Committee Forum is where potential exhibits to the Library are vetted. This section is not open for general viewing.