Horst Auction JP Beck

[sbowman]

Jd, thanks for the reply, 2 5/16th seems reasonable, I found measurements of the Washington rifle and it is 2in at the heel.  If you get a chance could you measure the drop at the heel on your rifle? you're the only person I am aware of who actually owns an original. You can message me if you don't want to reply here. I would really appreciate it.

Fwiw and you may be aware of all the following info, the rifle coming up for auction is the fifth J. P. Beck I know of with the whale tail patchbox. Beyer and J. P.'s son  also used it.
 i studied your pictures of the hinge and also noticed the appearance of "solder"? in that area. I'm with Eric on this as to an old repair. Cleaning the scale off after soldering would/could account for the difference in patina.  Still trying to determine how he and Beyer made the "stops" on their boxes, Filing I'm thinking?
The comb line is not unusual either. Including your own as well as one in RCA II, rifles # 98,99, and 100 in Kindig's book are very similar and I believe the "lion Beck" was also. 

Steve

[Jdbeck]

Eric the more I think about it, it probably is an old repair.

 Bowman: My rifle had an early break in its life effecting the drop, so I would utilize a drop that suits you best, there’s a few examples of JP’s work changes in the drop. There’s more knowledge on this forum that could probably assist you more than I.

Any one have thoughts on the engraving?

The engraving on the patch box to my eye wasn’t fine line leaf and scroll work, reminded me of some Beyers engraving work.

Horst Auction JP Signed rifle:





Beck:



Beyer:

[smoke and flames]

To my eye there is a strangeness to the Beyer engraving. It has a jaggedness I have nvever seen before in my 40 + yrs of engraving. It’s jagged on both sides of  the cut. True hammer and chisel is rough to an extent but iI’ve never seen it evenly rough on  both sides.
Now admit I am more familiar with more contemporary engraving but a cut is a cut. I’ve taught engraving and have never seen cut lines like these.  The beck looks right to me by the way.
Just my two cents

[DaveM]

JD - did you happen to get a photo of the carving behind the barrel tang?

[Jdbeck]

I got the carving forward the trigger guard,

And the sides of the tang carving, I thought I did, I guess phone didn’t snap the shot. It was a worn rococo vine with a leaf, between the leaf is a breast of life, with some incised carving as you would expect.

[Jdbeck]

It sold for $30,000  and taxes. I cannot play at that price yet. 😉  Maybe next time. “I was bidding online which included a 14% buyers premium.”

[debnal]

Horst auctions have a 0% buyer's premium!
AL

[Mark Tyler]

Horst auctions have a 0% buyer's premium!
AL

If you bid online the premium is 14%.

[Jdbeck]

My bad! I was bidding online. Didn’t realize it was cheaper in person.

[debnal]

I was the buyer of the Beck. I just got it today. It is exactly as it appears. It is an untouched, never fooled with, original flintlock rifle. It appears to be in the same condition as it was put up circa 200 years ago. I intend to keep it that way. Very rare for a Kentucky these days.
Al

[Fullstock longrifle]

Congratulations Al, that’s a very nice rifle

[Eric Kettenburg]

Congratulations, and it's very awesome of you not to diddle with it!  I think it looks perfect exactly as-is; you got a spectacular piece.

[jdm]

Nice job Al. That's a wonderful piece .

[Jdbeck]

I was the buyer of the Beck. I just got it today. It is exactly as it appears. It is an untouched, never fooled with, original flintlock rifle. It appears to be in the same condition as it was put up circa 200 years ago. I intend to keep it that way. Very rare for a Kentucky these days.
Al

Congratulations! Very few JP Becks are original flint, with the original lock. I was happy to handle the gun, but know I’d never win it, I certainly tried though! I’ll have to keep saving $.

[DaveM]

Congrats on your purchase! The straight butt plate looks early. Venture a guess on when it was made?

[debnal]

I think one could be very safe with 18th century. The lack of bridle on the lock, the 2 inch butt, the slight curl of the trigger, the shape of the butt, and the caliber(.65) MIGHT suggest 1770-1780.
Al

[Eric Kettenburg]

No offense Al but I doubt that very much.  Between @1776 and the early 1780s, none of these guys were building civilian rifles - at least, they weren't supposed to be.  Scott can fill in a lot more info in that regard.  Also, based on the Crisdianborgey rifle and the one or two others that were clearly Beck based on that rifle (assuming you accept the signature), his early career appears to have been much more Reading in style.  Whether he was apprenticed there or not I have no idea as I'm not a Beck expert.  I'd have no problem at all viewing this as an early post-War rifle, say mid 1780s through 1790s, definitely 18th century, but I don't see any believable way of pushing it back to the pre-War years.  JMHO.

Maybe George Rupp built it and decided that day to sign it as if he was Beck...          

[debnal]

Eric,
I understand. Dating early Kentucky's is very problematic. I am very comfortable with dating it to the 18th century but without a dated rifle to go by it's still guess, at best.
Al

[JTR]

Congratulations on winning this great early rifle!
I remember reading, probably here, probably SP Gordon, that some gunsmiths tasked with making military arms were caught making civilian arms instead, and were fined or threatened with fines.
Just a thought, John

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, that's a great document!  And it illustrates that as early as Dec 1775, authorities were already aware that they were going to need to keep an eye on makers of civilian arms.  I will admit it's speculation, but I doubt by 1776 and into 1777 when things were REALLY heating up in the northern theater, that gunmakers were building fancy civilian arms as I think it's pretty evident from an assortment of other documentation that they had their hands full with stocking and repairing arms for the War effort.  And that likely did not abate until late 1779 or early 1780 after the brits had abandoned Philly and the theater had moved south.

[DaveM]

I believe the only Berks County record I have seen for gunsmith Philip Beck was for him applying for 300 acres of land in Berks County in 1794. I think he bought the land from an Abraham Lauck. Abraham may have been his father in law?  Beck did marry a Lauck so Beck may have met his wife while working in Berks maybe around 1770? The Lauck family in Berks is worthsome research - maybe Beck learned the trade from his father in law.

[Jdbeck]

I believe the only Berks County record I have seen for gunsmith Philip Beck was for him applying for 300 acres of land in Berks County in 1794. I think he bought the land from an Abraham Lauck. Abraham may have been his father in law?  Beck did marry a Lauck so Beck may have met his wife while working in Berks maybe around 1770? The Lauck family in Berks is worthsome research - maybe Beck learned the trade from his father in law.

The father of JP Beck  Johan Christian Beck arrived in 1749 to Philadelphia, he also purchased land in Lebanon in 1762, and was said to be a powdermaker.

There is a sale note of a Longrifle by Christian Beck in 1784 in the Hopewell Forge journal. This date excludes J.P’s Son Christian and his Nephew Christian Beck III. Both his Brother and father used the name Christian— likely his brother was also a gunsmith, as there is documentation of him selling “joiners tools”.

Christ Tulpehocken Lutheran  Church in Richland, PA records show  Anna  Maria Lauk,  daughter  of  Abraham  Lauk, Married  John Philip  Beck on May  12,  1766 (both of them age 15???)   So we know at this time period he was living between Lebanon and Wormelsdorf in that Myerstown region.  Seems awful young to marry even for Colonial America- an arrangement with Abraham Lauk would make a lot of since in this context. Interesting idea that Abraham could have been his teacher of the craft.


JP Beck was  assessed in  Lebanon  Township  in  1780 as a gunsmith. This is the earliest I am aware of, besides the building rifles for the Committee of Safety.

The Salem Lutheran church where he was buried shows he married his second wife Barbara  Boshar  on  the  8th  of  August,  1802.

One also has to tread lightly as there was a Moravian family with similar names and ages. Interestingly enough there was a Christian Gregory b. abt 1742 in Berks county, who also fought in the Rev war.

 I’d love to get to some more historical societies, Lutheran church records, ect and try and figure out more on JP and where he was between 1766 and 1780. I think one has to align the rifles with where he was and it’ll help show the evolution of the builder…and maybe his teacher?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think if the Crisdianborgey (sp?) rifle is truly a JP Beck rifle (and I believe it is) - in other words, someone did not recycle a signed barrel - it's surely one of if not the earliest Beck rifles extant.  And using that as a guidepost, there is at least one other unsigned rifle in RCA1 that is very obviously the same guy, maybe two, will have to go look back through the book.  And I know of at least one other that matches up with this group that is not in the books.  They all have a lot of early Berks characteristics but are very unique and do not look like the so-called 'Haga' group.  I'd guess they may be all early 1770s, just prior to the outbreak of the War.  If they are all indeed JP Beck, it would indicate to my mind that he had some *working* connection (apprenticeship?  journeyman work?) to someone in the Reading area or working in that assumed style, and following the War, he then developed his own thing and stuck with it for the rest of his life.

[Jdbeck]

I think if the Crisdianborgey (sp?) rifle is truly a JP Beck rifle (and I believe it is) - in other words, someone did not recycle a signed barrel - it's surely one of if not the earliest Beck rifles extant.  And using that as a guidepost, there is at least one other unsigned rifle in RCA1 that is very obviously the same guy, maybe two, will have to go look back through the book.  And I know of at least one other that matches up with this group that is not in the books.  They all have a lot of early Berks characteristics but are very unique and do not look like the so-called 'Haga' group.  I'd guess they may be all early 1770s, just prior to the outbreak of the War.  If they are all indeed JP Beck, it would indicate to my mind that he had some *working* connection (apprenticeship?  journeyman work?) to someone in the Reading area or working in that assumed style, and following the War, he then developed his own thing and stuck with it for the rest of his life.

The Christian Gregory rifle features JP’s trigger guard, side plate, and his engraving, also it’s clearly his patchbox “notice the off center latch, the door has there tabs, and filled hinge”. The JP Beck brass hinge is unique to his work and does not change. The barrel tang is also JP’s. So without a doubt it’s Becks Hardware, but whether he made the carving who knows?



Compare to this Beck:




However, the other rifle they argue is his, i highly doubt based on the patchbox, latch, butt plate, barrel tang, ect. Though similar architecture, the hardware is total different. This gun pictured below has nothing matching JP Beck, except the profile of the “Christian Gregory Rifle” and same carving motifs. The only signed Albrect rifle has an identical profile to a JP Beck and similar carving— so it’s not a good argument. I think this rifle is interesting but I’m not convinced, there’s without a
Doubt a connection between the two guns, but the hardware is so vastly different, two tab door, not the JP hinge, and the latch mechanism is completely different.

It’s as if two Gentlemen were building identical rifles with their own hardware. Reminds me of Bonewitz rifle that Reedy and Fichthorn made copies of (Research done by Henry Bishop).

[Eric Kettenburg]

I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck.  I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed.  So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck.  It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this.  I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War.  To whom did he apprentice?  I have no idea.  There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out.  If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.

Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this.  A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.

I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course.  But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers.  Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture.  I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use.  All that was needed was something to do the job.