Help with early 18thC French proof marks

[Solomon]

Hi ALR members,

First post here, new member. I've referenced the site and forum a number of times (great trove of info, thank you!), and thought it long overdue that I go ahead and join.

Wondering if anyone can help with marks on an American assembled musket, with 1728 St Etienne lock and barrel(?). I've searched the internet pretty thoroughly,  but cannot find much mention, and no indication of meanings.

Above the ST ETIENNE, on the plate, is a conjoined HB (I think) below the crown. Anyone know what the HB stands for?






Also, there are a couple of proof marks on the left barrel flat, with what appears to be a script "L" and maybe a "N" within a circle, or imposed onto another letter (C, or O?)-




Any help with these greatly appreciated.

Solomon

[silky]

Hi Solomon,

I can't help with the marks, but would you be willing to post more pictures and info about that musket?  These American re-stocks are very cool.

I'm sure someone here will be able to help you with the marks.

Thanks!

- Tom

[ntqlvr1948]

The lock is from around a 1763 musket. I have a model 1763 infantry musket with the same marking on the lock and I assume it is the arsenal mark. The early French locks have a step behind the hammer

[Hlbly]

HB Hudson Bay Co? Just a wild guess.

[ntqlvr1948]

Here's the 1763 St Etienne lock

[Solomon]

The lock is from around a 1763 musket. I have a model 1763 infantry musket with the same marking on the lock and I assume it is the arsenal mark. The early French locks have a step behind the hammer

Thanks for the replies, all. I have not yet been able to find a plate with block lettering from 1763, with all examples seeming to come from 1728. What I was primarily going on, along with bridled pan/frizzen, though the latter may have been sourced otherwise.

I'll try to get a pic of the musket on in a bit, yep.

[smart dog]

Hi,
The lock is from a model 1763 series of muskets (I am not guessing here), probably a light 63, which we call the model 1766 .  The crown over HB is the controller's mark but I don't know the name of the individual with initials HB.  On page 40 of Hicks' "French Military Weapons" is a diagram of your lock with the same markings. The crown over N surrounded by a larger letter "C" is the mark for Nicholas Carteron, one of the proof masters working at St Etienne. The marks indicate a date for the lock and barrel of around 1770.

dave

[Solomon]

Dave, I really appreciate the reply and further info, and yours also, ntqlvr1948. That's really neat, re Nicholas Carteron. Thank you both for the 63/66 ID on the lock also, and for the lock/barrel date of ~1770. Still building a library, little by little, but will look for the Hicks reference.

Full pic, on its repaired maple stock-

[Solomon]

One thing of note, the barrel on this musket measures 46 3/4, which seems to predate the latter, shortened variants. Any thoughts around this?

[ntqlvr1948]

Yes, the 1763's and later had 44 and 1/2 inch barrels.  Your barrel is much earlier I suppose. Does the barrel start off octagon and goes to round after a foot or so?

[Solomon]

It is octagonal at the breech, yeah, with a gradual taper to round concluding at about 8 inches.

[ntqlvr1948]

It is probably a 1728 barrel. I have a musket that was made up of parts with a 1728 lock and I assume a 1728 barrel. It is the same length as yours and tapers to round about 8 inches down, and about 80 caliber

[Solomon]

Nice. Love to see pics, in turn. Have become much more interested in American assembled, committee of safety type muskets. This one has some crazy, coarse rifling added, that I've never seen anything like before. Bore light dead, new one on way, will post pics when able.

[sbowman]

Solomon, the barrel on your musket predates the 1763/66 model musket so don't put much faith in Dave's date of manufacture for the barrel.  The script L stands for King Louie and the inspector could have been working at St. Etienne prior to the adoption of the shorter barrel models.  Books have been found to be wrong. I believe what you have is a musket that was restocked/rebuilt with existing serviceable parts for a state armory post revolutionary war. the gunsmith/armorer would inventory the muskets, deem which and what parts were serviceable, and proceed from there to bring each arm up to serviceable condition.
Sources for these muskets could be from existing inventory owned by the state and issued to their militias during the war or purchased as imported surplus post war.

Steve

[Solomon]

Thanks Steve. I know early Springfields reasonably well, and have grown more interested in mixed, pre-1795 assemblies, along with era state/militia muskets, but definitely not an expert. That said, I'm not finding any examples of 1728 plates with script lettering, or 1763/66 plates with block lettering, but could certainly be wrong.

That makes sense, re state armory. Didn't know if it was that, in the years after the war, or maybe mid-war sourcing/assembly, as state militias and continentals scrambled for arms.

Cheers

[Clark Badgett]

Measure the lock plate. It certainly is a 1763/66 plate. You have most likely a post war parts assembled musket. I would love to see the rest of the furnishings. Our government reused any serviceable part they had on hand whether it be French, English, Spanish, Dutch or German.

[Solomon]

Clark,

I appreciate the reply. The plate is pretty much dead on 6 3/4 x 1 1/4.

A few pics of furnishings,

[ntqlvr1948]

Here's my gun made from other pieces. At first when I got it years ago i thought it was a true 1728 French gun but I was educated on this site. Lock is from a 1728, barrel probably also. Length of barrel is 46 and 3/4 inches long. the lock is over 7 inches long and I love the hammer  ...    Gene


private image upload

[ntqlvr1948]

The locks on all my 1763-68 muskets are right on 6 and 1/4 long.   Are you sure you measured yours right?

[Solomon]

Thanks for posting pics, ntqlvr1948. I see yours also has the bridled pan/frizzen, which was removed in 46, if I remember correctly, reading around.

[ntqlvr1948]

Wow, that lock is not like any I have seen. perhaps from 1746 or 54. All my guns have shorter locks...I am sure there are guys on this site that can give better information. But the hammers look identical to the 63 and 68s.

[backsplash75]

It is probably a 1728 barrel. I have a musket that was made up of parts with a 1728 lock and I assume a 1728 barrel. It is the same length as yours and tapers to round about 8 inches down, and about 80 caliber

[snip]

Lock is from a 1728, barrel probably also. Length of barrel is 46 and 3/4 inches long. the lock is over 7 inches long and I love the hammer  ...    Gene

Gene,
Those larger 1728 and 1717 style locks (meaning well over 6.75 and into 7" territory) are usually rampart musket locks- one thing to watch out for on parts bin French guns is that if the lock plate is +/- 7inches or so and the barrel is +/- .80 (vs. say .72 to .74ish) the parts may be from a French rampart gun vs an infantry musket. The rampart muskets were made in a very similar fashion to the parallel infantry guns but were basically english musket bore, lacked slings and had larger locks and furniture. Good qty of rampart barrels and locks as well as complete guns came here as Rev War era French military aid and lots of those parts later ended up in American stocked guns.

[Hungry Horse]

 I have friend that has an early French parts musket made from random French musket parts. The lock has the same dimensions as the 1763 but is marked by the Meubueg arsenal, and has a brass pan instead of iron. It also has an octagon to round barrel of carbine length with wedding bands under the rear barrel sleeve. The stock is a 1777 with wood filler pieces glued into the oversized inlets. The barrel sleeves have holes for the earlier springs, but the later spring have replaced them.

Hungry Horse

[Clark Badgett]

Solomon, congratulations. Your lock seems to be a 1763 lock. The butt plate isn’t French and the upper band resembles a 1754 style. You have a couple of great muskets there.

[Solomon]

Appreciate the comments, Clark. I wasn't sure if the buttplate was English or American copy of English, and wasn't sure about the barrel bands, assuming the crude, lapped lower and mid were American blacksmith. Thanks for the 1754 attribute on the upper.