No two Hawken's are identical.

[t.caster]

Well I didn't mean to ruffle so many feathers. I didn't say they were a POS, I know they are made very sturdy for the extreme abuse they would be subject to in the rockies and on horseback. I've just heard so many criticisms over the years about wrist & butt shape, cheeck shape, drum cofiguration, slant or vertical breech, the right curl on the trig guard, brass vs. steel, etc. If it didn't have all the right stuff....it was all wrong. When in fact they changed over time and no two were alike. I've built only one Hawken way back in '81 I think, based on examples in John Bairds books, and I still consider it one of the best built guns I've ever made. and it was for a customer who would be hunting elk and muleys in the rockies on horseback! It is still in use today.
But for a contemporary builder there is no room for deviation from an original, no room for artistic flair. Most people I run into don't care about the details and are fine with a Browning, Dixie, TOtW or T/C version to name a few. They just want it to bust critters.

[Dphariss]

Yep the late ones are… Clunky. And near as I can see all the drawings and kits are for rifles like the Bridger.
In contrast…. The barrel on the ETC is 39 7/8” long or there about like a 50 cal Kentucky barrel.  Being 1.029 in front of the nipple seat, .978 at the rear sight, .944 at the forend cap, 3” from the muzzle its 905, at front sight 908 at the muzzle its .917 so its just over 13/16 at the muzzle. I stocked  a 17 3/4 pound Kentucky 1 1/4”straight, that is the same depth at the lock as my 1” barreled Don King FS Hawken. Which is based on a probably 1840ish FS so far as I can tell. But the late Hawkens often had 7/16 loading rods, rod breakage anywhere West of Westport Landing was a “problem” so they often carried a spare in the bore. Heavier keys, higher ribs or more wood over the bottom flat in the FS versions. and other things that make the stock bigger. And somewhat bigger locks being “deeper” top to bottom especially in the late rifles. Remembering that the locks specified for the Henry trade rifles were to be 5” locks. Allows bigger stronger internal parts. And is you want see big look at the internals on the military guns of the period. And this was the case until the US military abandoned the side lock when Smokeless became a factor.  All these things made them more durable and some surely were the result of repairs/restocks done by the shop on both their own rifles and others.
The vast majority of “Hawken” rifles carried at todays  “Western Rendezvous” are the wrong gun. Either TCs or similar (OK unless they insist its a “Hawken”), or something from Italy or some version of the Carson/Bridger etc. The last are of course about 15 years too late to be a beaver era Mtn Man rifle.  But its what many think a Hawken is and they are right. For a given time frame. But  they evolved for the environment they “lived in”. Artist expression? Jake and Sam would have been puzzled. The Petersen, the ETC and the Atchison and many others are engraved.  They had variant patch/cap boxes, and inlays. But at least they did not use the shotgun approach to placing inlays. Though the Atchison is pretty gaudy. Buttstocks. 2-3 designs. Cheek rests run a wide range. And the Petersen and ETC even have a raised line that wraps around the comb. But its hard to see on the Petersen unless you know its there. But you can certainly feel it and see it in photos. IF you look and know what it is.
Here is a photo of a rifle being made off the  ETC pattern and a Kibler Colonial. The “Hawken” is  about .040” deeper than the Kibler has a smaller barrel 1”, But it has a big lock, a Schillinger Hawken lock and a rib that set the rod lower in relation to the barrel than the Kibler. It also has “errors” the ETC has a very flat contour buttplate. I widened it a little to improve the contour.   I expect the cheekpiece is too high as well. And I rust blued some items that apparently were casehardened on at least some rifles. The Kibler lays at a different angle that makes it appear somewhat larger than it is.
Looking at it I need to measure the thing at the entry pipe tail as well. But it was sawed to the pattern.. Photos sure can make you think….

[RAT]

I've never understood the attraction to a full size pickup truck with an extended cab. If I was going to buy a full size pickup, I'd want one with a full size bed. The extended cab never made any sense to me. I wouldn't have any use for it.

Now... I'm not going to petition Ford to stop making extended cab trucks just because "I" don't like them. Clearly a lot of other people like them... and buy them.

My point is... we need to stop trying to see the world based only on our own likes and dislikes. The world doesn't revolve around each of us as individuals. If you don't like Hawken rifles... that's fine... but a lot of us do... and that's OK too. We're not in any way stupid, uneducated, or misguided for liking them.

I also don't care much for blondes... but that's off topic.

[HighUintas]

Yep the late ones are… Clunky. And near as I can see all the drawings and kits are for rifles like the Bridger.
In contrast…. The barrel on the ETC is 39 7/8” long or there about like a 50 cal Kentucky barrel.  Being 1.029 in front of the nipple seat, .978 at the rear sight, .944 at the forend cap, 3” from the muzzle its 905, at front sight 908 at the muzzle its .917 so its just over 13/16 at the muzzle. I stocked  a 17 3/4 pound Kentucky 1 1/4”straight, that is the same depth at the lock as my 1” barreled Don King FS Hawken. Which is based on a probably 1840ish FS so far as I can tell. But the late Hawkens often had 7/16 loading rods, rod breakage anywhere West of Westport Landing was a “problem” so they often carried a spare in the bore. Heavier keys, higher ribs or more wood over the bottom flat in the FS versions. and other things that make the stock bigger. And somewhat bigger locks being “deeper” top to bottom especially in the late rifles. Remembering that the locks specified for the Henry trade rifles were to be 5” locks. Allows bigger stronger internal parts. And is you want see big look at the internals on the military guns of the period. And this was the case until the US military abandoned the side lock when Smokeless became a factor.  All these things made them more durable and some surely were the result of repairs/restocks done by the shop on both their own rifles and others.
The vast majority of “Hawken” rifles carried at todays  “Western Rendezvous” are the wrong gun. Either TCs or similar (OK unless they insist its a “Hawken”), or something from Italy or some version of the Carson/Bridger etc. The last are of course about 15 years too late to be a beaver era Mtn Man rifle.  But its what many think a Hawken is and they are right. For a given time frame. But  they evolved for the environment they “lived in”. Artist expression? Jake and Sam would have been puzzled. The Petersen, the ETC and the Atchison and many others are engraved.  They had variant patch/cap boxes, and inlays. But at least they did not use the shotgun approach to placing inlays. Though the Atchison is pretty gaudy. Buttstocks. 2-3 designs. Cheek rests run a wide range. And the Petersen and ETC even have a raised line that wraps around the comb. But its hard to see on the Petersen unless you know its there. But you can certainly feel it and see it in photos. IF you look and know what it is.
Here is a photo of a rifle being made off the  ETC pattern and a Kibler Colonial. The “Hawken” is  about .040” deeper than the Kibler has a smaller barrel 1”, But it has a big lock, a Schillinger Hawken lock and a rib that set the rod lower in relation to the barrel than the Kibler. It also has “errors” the ETC has a very flat contour buttplate. I widened it a little to improve the contour.   I expect the cheekpiece is too high as well. And I rust blued some items that apparently were casehardened on at least some rifles. The Kibler lays at a different angle that makes it appear somewhat larger than it is.
Looking at it I need to measure the thing at the entry pipe tail as well. But it was sawed to the pattern.. Photos sure can make you think….

Dan, did you build the copy of the ETC you're showing? I'd love to see the whole and finished rifle, if it is finished and is yours to share. 

[smylee grouch]

I'm sure there are some folks out there who could care less which Hawken rifle Mr. Kibbler makes. Any thing that is generic will be OK for some. Others will want something more specific.

[Dphariss]

The Hawken has been in processing far too long and needs to be gone. But its been on of those guns that likes to mess with the builders head. Used to run into this a lot when I was doing this.

All done and then it fails final inspection the next morning for something the little guy that lives under the trapdoor in the floor did over night. He also steals hard to replace screws that fall on the floor.
If there are 500 or 1000 in the tool room they never disappeared or were found 20 feet away under another bench. But drop and odd ball from something not made in the factory and see… His name is probably Murphy….

But its pretty close. Got the thing the future owner gave me on the stock.
But of course, I rust blues the barrel before I put my name on it. But thats just how its been……
Why I hate taking orders…..

[Leatherbark]

Good business for Mr. Kibler to offer a percussion rifle to open up Kibler guns to a whole new group of buyers. There are those that absolutely want nothing to do with a flintlock. Doesn't fit their interest in history, I guess.

 I shoot flint mostly but still shoot percussion and love them all.

But the rifle he will make needs to be able to be shot offhand and carried without a horse...........So.......I hope it is no heavier than 9 to 10 pounds.  I'd make the barrel a straight taper 1 inch to 15/16ths or something similar.

Bob

[Dphariss]

The Hawken has been in processing far too long and needs to be gone. But its been on of those guns that likes to mess with the builders head. Used to run into this a lot when I was doing this.


All done and then it fails final inspection the next morning for something the little guy that lives under the trapdoor in the floor did over night. He also steals hard to replace screws that fall on the floor.
If there are 500 or 1000 in the tool room they never disappeared or were found 20 feet away under another bench. But drop and odd ball from something not made in the factory and see… His name is probably Murphy….

But its pretty close. Got the thing the future owner gave me on the stock.
But of course, I rust blues the barrel before I put my name on it. But thats just how its been……
Why I hate taking orders…..

BTW
That rifle and its two brothers are movie stars now.

[Daniel Coats]

"They say God made Australia last, don't you know, after he got tired of making everything else the same.”

[Eric Krewson]

My take on the Hawken love fest issue is rather simplified; I would bet that 90% of the folk reading this bought a TC or CVA hawken variant for their first B/P rifle. Myself and most of the folk here have moved on but still have that memory of killing our first B/P deer with our trusty TC and have fond memories of this style of rifle. I suspect that many of the guys lust after the same style but one that is closer to the real thing.

I still have two TC Hawkens in my gun safe, I can't seem to part with them even if I don't hunt with them except when I want a nostalgic trip to the past.

My favorite style now is my 38" barreled slender Issac Haines in .54, it makes even a TC feel like a tree trunk. No new Hawkens style rifles for me.

[Mike Brooks]

My hate fest with the Hawkins rifle started in 1980 when I went to Friendship. There were two guns people used back then. A genuine by God Hawkins rifle and a Tennessee rifle with a siler flintlock. I have detested both ever since.
 I have seen and handled plenty of original Hawken rifles. No more impressive than any of the other St. Louis built rifles of the day. Never understood the hoopla, just another heavy barreled plains rifle. ::)BORING....

[rich pierce]

Anyone have more info on the ETC Hawken?
Is it stamped J&S Hawken?
Walnut stock?
Halfstock or full stock?
Type or shape of breech? Snail or “conquistador helmet?”
Shape of tang?
Shape of cheekpiece?
Key escutcheons?
Shape of guard? Big round English shotgun guard scroll?
Is the trigger bar extra long and guard screwed to it?
Pictures?
Is it in this thread? https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=62606.0

[Austin]

I really enjoy listening Hawken lovers and haters argue, please carry on….

[rich pierce]

I really enjoy listening Hawken lovers and haters argue, please carry on….

If only Bedford County rifles had become a “thing” like Hawken rifles!  No 2 of them were alike either. And we could argue about what the Bedford flintlock locks really looked like.

[bama]

I had the pleasure of attending the Hawken Classic this year. The display of original Hawken rifles and St. Louis rifles was excellent, and I would like to say thanks to everyone that help put that display on for us to enjoy.

The first thing I noticed about the display of original Hawken rifles was the amount of variation there was in the rifles. No two were exactly the same. If you have ever tried to build a bench copy of an original, then you know how hard that task is. We have to remember that the Hawken rifle was still pretty much a hand built rifle, built by more than one builder that had the name Hawken stamped on it. I know that there are a few on this board that have studied these rifles and have built excellent copies but if you put their builds side by side there would be differences in the rifles. The only thing that really makes the original rifles special is the name stamped on the barrel. Love them or hate them, they have their place in our history.

I hope Jim has success in this project. If he does produce it you can bet it will be a very good representation of the St. Louis rifle that has become known as the Hawken rifle and for the first time in it's history it will become a uniformly built rifle that will not vary in it's standards. The variations will still be up to the builder who puts his hands to the task. I am sure we will see a vast array deferent designs from those of us that step up to the plate.

I managed to build one Hawken styled rifle with a 1" breech and a straight taper to 15/16" 32" long barrel that weighed around 9 lbs. This was a 50 cal I believe, if you build one  in 54 to 62 cal Jim should be able manage an acceptable carry weight.

[Roger B]

I have a Rich Pierce Deringer trade rifle that is a dead ringer for an original. I also have a Henry "scroll guard" or "new English" pattern. Both were common during the fur trade & much more authentic than a flint Hawken. I think there may be a converted flint Hawken in Smithsonian, but you can get argument about that one. Don Stith made a US 1795 rifle ( I think) kit which may have been the Louis & Clark rifle. Why doesn't someone make a kit for one those 3 & we can all be more authentic at Rendezvous  with our flint trade rifles? He said with a pile of NOS Hawken parts in a box at his door.
Roger B.

[Scota4570]

Good business for Mr. Kibler to offer a percussion rifle to open up Kibler guns to a whole new group of buyers. There are those that absolutely want nothing to do with a flintlock. Doesn't fit their interest in history, I guess.

 I shoot flint mostly but still shoot percussion and love them all.

But the rifle he will make needs to be able to be shot offhand and carried without a horse...........So.......I hope it is no heavier than 9 to 10 pounds.  I'd make the barrel a straight taper 1 inch to 15/16ths or something similar.

Bob

I agree so much I took matter into my own hands.   That said Jim is emerging as the most successful maker of quality ML kits.  He knows what he is doing from a business standpoint.  He has good reasons for what he offers.  Below is my go to rifle for club shoots. 

Scot

[ScottNE]

I have a Rich Pierce Deringer trade rifle that is a dead ringer for an original. I also have a Henry "scroll guard" or "new English" pattern. Both were common during the fur trade & much more authentic than a flint Hawken. I think there may be a converted flint Hawken in Smithsonian, but you can get argument about that one. Don Stith made a US 1795 rifle ( I think) kit which may have been the Louis & Clark rifle. Why doesn't someone make a kit for one those 3 & we can all be more authentic at Rendezvous  with our flint trade rifles? He said with a pile of NOS Hawken parts in a box at his door.
Roger B.

I've seen a couple J.J. Henry  English Pattern Trade Rifles built by Ron Paull. My knowledge of the mountain west fur trade era is spotty but that pattern was being produced around 1830 or so, correct? To me, that's a pretty good-looking rifle and catches my eye far more than any Hawken.

That said, the cachet of the Hawken name is undeniable and for those living or interested in the places it was carried, I can well understand the appeal.

[Daryl]

Good business for Mr. Kibler to offer a percussion rifle to open up Kibler guns to a whole new group of buyers. There are those that absolutely want nothing to do with a flintlock. Doesn't fit their interest in history, I guess.

 I shoot flint mostly but still shoot percussion and love them all.

But the rifle he will make needs to be able to be shot offhand and carried without a horse...........So.......I hope it is no heavier than 9 to 10 pounds.  I'd make the barrel a straight taper 1 inch to 15/16ths or something similar.

Bob

I agree so much I took matter into my own hands.   That said Jim is emerging as the most successful maker of quality ML kits.  He knows what he is doing from a business standpoint.  He has good reasons for what he offers.  Below is my go to rifle for club shoots. 

Scot

Not THAT'S a rifle I could probably shoot fairly well.

[HighUintas]

Anyone have more info on the ETC Hawken?
Is it stamped J&S Hawken?
Walnut stock?
Halfstock or full stock?
Type or shape of breech? Snail or “conquistador helmet?”
Shape of tang?
Shape of cheekpiece?
Key escutcheons?
Shape of guard? Big round English shotgun guard scroll?
Is the trigger bar extra long and guard screwed to it?
Pictures?
Is it in this thread? https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=62606.0

Yes it's near the bottom of page 1 in your link. Also, here's the link to the rifle on MHS website http://mhsmuseum.pastperfectonline.com/webobject/3C06C012-A946-4DED-B7B6-257823862894

I believe Herb measured and photographed this rifle years ago. Dan and Bob (I think?) have had this rifle apart multiple times.

[HighUintas]

There is also this Hawken, or maybe Hawken.  Post #5 https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/mountain-man-rifle.89613/#post-2320070

[Bob Roller]

Best advice Louie Parker ever gave me was “never make a Hawken rifle that is a composite of features from several individual rifles.  Base your build on one original.”  The same rings true for many builds. My view only.

Finding ONE that's alike is hard .I saw an S.Hawken in St.Louis supposedly the LAST gun Sam Hawken ever made and it is a nice one.
Tom Dawson wondered about it and questioned the ability of a man supposedly 90 or close to it being able to turn out a job like that.
We have Herb that is still active and I told Tom that my maternal grandfather put a new roof on our kitchen when he was 94.
This was in 1973.My own personal preference IS the English half stock rifles in flint or percussion with fine wood and checkering,Engraving
I can take it or leave it.

Bob Roller

[Bsharp]

Best advice Louie Parker ever gave me was “never make a Hawken rifle that is a composite of features from several individual rifles.  Base your build on one original.”  The same rings true for many builds. My view only.

Finding ONE that's alike is hard .I saw an S.Hawken in St.Louis supposedly the LAST gun Sam Hawken ever made and it is a nice one.
Tom Dawson wondered about it and questioned the ability of a man supposedly 90 or close to it being able to turn out a job like that.
We have Herb that is still active and I told Tom that my maternal grandfather put a new roof on our kitchen when he was 94.
This was in 1973.My own personal preference IS the English half stock rifles in flint or percussion with fine wood and checkering,Engraving
I can take it or leave it.


Bob Roller

I agree!!

[oldtravler61]

  What people have to understand.  That what we base our facts on is on the SURVIVING ORIGINAL guns and their measurements. No two are exactly alike and I don't care which one your discussing.

[prairieofthedog]

Would love to see a JJ henry New English trade gun Kibler kit.I am a Fur Trade re-enact-er and as said above it would be more authentic than a Hawken.If a Hawken, I would much rather have a slender,earlier rifle.Those later 4x4 clubs are much later than the fur trade area anyway.I would rather have a slender full stock,just because there are about 10 million of those half-stock Hawkens around.