Author Topic: Swaged balls not so round  (Read 2357 times)

Offline HighUintas

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Swaged balls not so round
« on: October 22, 2023, 09:34:43 AM »


I've had a really hard time loading Hornady .570 balls in my 58 colerain round groove with a 0.0225 denim patch. Sometimes, it's not bad. Sometimes, I have to hammer that sucker partway down the bore.

I finally decided to measure my Hornady balls this evening. Well, they're not very round and some of them were measuring 0.577!! Most were between 0.572 and 0.575.....no wonder I've had trouble loading some of them and most have been more snug than I thought they should be!

I'm going to have to get a mold to casts my own. Or, at least try out some cast balls.

Does anyone know if the Kibler cast balls are true to stated size? Or what supplier has .570 cast balls that actually measure 0.570 and are comparable in price to Kiblers?

Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2023, 11:23:01 AM »
I didnt even know Kibler sold roundballs. I need to get out more
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Online Jerry

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2023, 02:12:56 PM »
My Lyman .570 mould casts at .572 perfectly round balls. Using pure lead. Jerry

Offline Marvin S

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2023, 02:42:41 PM »
I agree the hornady swaged balls look like the planet Saturn but they proudly ship them out anyway. I would try a new LEE double cavity mold. They have a lot going for them like price, no spruce to speak of and comes with handles.

Offline BJH

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2023, 03:58:18 PM »
My new production Lee 2 cavity mold throws really nice balls within .002 of round with pure lead. Iím quite happy with it. Keep the lead hot and clean, and the mold good and hot beforehand and you should be making good balls quickly. When the mold is hot enough the puddles of lead on top of the spru should take a a good 5 to 10 second count till you see the solidification color change. If you donít have access to pure lead then get a .562 ball mold. And use heavier patching. This has worked fine for me in the past. With accuracy as good as my eyesight allows. Minute of deer heart @ 50 yards plus. .58 is my favorite deer hunting caliber. Iíve harvested more deer with it than all the rest of my armory combined. BJH
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Offline HighUintas

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2023, 05:02:17 PM »
Thanks for the tips!

I was hoping to get a Lee mold, but ama little disappointed they don't do a .570 mold. I inexplicably really want that extra 0.008 in ball size going from .562 to .570  ::) I may have to order some of each size from track and see which one seems to shoot better.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2023, 09:02:59 PM »
I bought a .570" Lyman mould, second hand from a business in Oregon, I think it was, or maybe Washington when I had the .577 Musketoon. I had been shooting .575's in it
with the 10 ounce denim, at that time the bolt I had measured .0225" thick, compressed. The new stuff  bought measures .0210".
The bore of this rifle measures .574", rather tight, but with the steel rod and a generous crown, it worked. BTW - the Lyman mould cast a round ball in pure lead, of .574" x .574".
They would not roll down the bore. Rifling at the muzzle was .003", and .011" deep at the breech. You would think this would cause burning of the patches, but that did not happen.
Recovered patches were re-usable with newly applied lube.
I bought a .562" Lee DC mould as I found balls from this mould were just as accurate as the larger ones, shooting 3" groups at 100 yards.  75gr. 2F GOEX produced 1,308fps with the
larger balls.
A smooth crown and wet lube makes a huge difference in loading. Once into the bore, the steel rod made loading pretty easy, even with the .575" balls that were larger than the bore.
The lower, right hand muzzle is the .577 Enfield Musketoon's muzzle. The left hand one is a .45 GM barrel.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2023, 02:48:42 AM »
The grooves being relatively narrow does not help with the loading and the Hornadys usually have a ridge that is ďhighĒ. And apparently they donít give a hoot. Speer RBs are usually better.
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Offline Sharpsman

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2023, 01:22:51 AM »
I use Hornady SWAGED RB in all of my rifles and get excellent accuracy using the .570 balls!

I chose at random ten .570 Hornady swaged balls and weighed to check consistency of weight. Results can be seen on pad at right of photo.

31207785438_68db8b292a_k by Sharps Man, on Flickr
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 01:35:31 AM by Sharpsman »
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Offline HighUintas

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2023, 05:56:24 PM »
That is good. I never weighed mine, because after I measured them with my calipers I decided that I needed to use cast balls because the variance in loading difficulty drives me crazy!

Luckily, my dear friend Herb gave me his old 0.570 mold when I visited him... And it just happened to be on my birthday, which was a fun coincidence because he didn't know that it was. I have yet to cast any, but I hope to be able to cast some and possibly test them out this weekend!

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2023, 08:54:44 PM »
I have seen folks roll swaged roundballs between two plates of glass to iron out inconsistencies. 

Dan, I 100% agree with your comment about grooves.  I cannot stand narrow, deep grooves.  Almost impossible to seal.  I have no idea why barrel makers do that.  Wide grooves and narrow lands are so much easier to seal and shoot well. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2023, 09:31:24 PM »
I also use Hornady swaged balls and have for years. I have no issue with them and they shoot better than I am capable of shooting these years. I had two different small batches cast by a good friend who had the molds and is an expert caster. I found no advantage in the casted ones over the swaged ones.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2023, 11:51:26 PM »
I tested Hornady balls in my .45, compared to cast. The cast balls out shot the swaged balls, every group, at 50yards.
I only shot 3, 5-shot groups with each, but the .440" cast balls were clearly the winners, compared to the .440" swaged balls.
After trying .445" cast balls, I never used the .440 mould again.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline MJBush

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2023, 06:34:42 PM »
Did you ever test Hornady .445?
Michael

Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2023, 08:26:07 PM »
Seems to me I did, with the virtually the same results, shooting the swaged .445's against Lee Dc mould .445's.
In my .40, the Lyman mould casting .398" was very good. The .40 had a .398" bore, with .010" deep wide grooves
and narrow lands. It was a Goodoien "Match" barrel. I did not try swaged balls in it, but did use .400" x.400's from
a Lyman mould. They shot more accurately than the .398", but not by very much.
10 ounce denim at .0225" and .0235" ticking was used in both guns, with all the balls. The current 10 ounce denim I have,
bought from a bolt of cloth, measures .021". It's new cloth and seems to shoot well in all of my rifles and smoothbore.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline HighUintas

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2023, 10:40:07 PM »
I cast my first balls last night from my new/used mold from Herb. They ranged from 0.568-0.570, and seemingly not more than about 0.001 variation in diameter for a single ball. Weight ranges from around 278.2-279.5 gr.

This was my first attempt at casting anything, so I am very happy! I think this should make loading balls with my patch of choice much easier and more consistent.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2023, 12:05:26 AM »
 I pity you guys who like me will some day have some old shooter pick up a hand full of your reject bullets and kick your butt with them. I now totally regret wasting so much precious time weighing, rolling, and methodically removing every hint of the sprue. Iím now quite sure it never happened in the past, except with high end competitive shooters likely at international matches.

Hungry Horse

Offline HighUintas

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2023, 12:49:39 AM »
I have no doubt that I can't shoot the difference between these cast balls and the swaged ones! I only measured to see what the ended up being. After I have my process figured out, I'll just cast without measuring. My only goal was to make loading easier and more consistent.

Also... I'm pretty excited to bring home some meat with a gun I built and balls I cast!

Offline HighUintas

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2023, 09:32:25 PM »
I'd like to report that after my 2nd round of casting, my balls came out a bit better looking as I think the mold filled out better. They all measured very very close to 0.570. I used Joann's natural color bull denim, which measures about 0.020 for me after washing, and loading was absolutely phenomenal compared to previous attempts.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2023, 04:31:33 AM »
Sounds like it is coming together. Your casting is very good, by those numbers.
Hot clean lead, hot mould, attention to detail & consistency = good balls.



These are .574's. The balls should look like gems.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2023, 04:32:26 AM »
Sounds like it is coming together. Your casting is very good, by those numbers.
Hot clean lead, hot mould, attention to detail & consistency = good balls.



These are .574's. The balls should look like gems.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2023, 04:32:51 AM »
Sounds like it is coming together. Your casting is very good, by those numbers.
Hot clean lead, hot mould, attention to detail & consistency = good balls.



These are .574's. The balls should look like gems.


Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Sharpsman

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2023, 05:12:20 PM »
Seems to me I did, with the virtually the same results, shooting the swaged .445's against Lee Dc mould .445's.
In my .40, the Lyman mould casting .398" was very good. The .40 had a .398" bore, with .010" deep wide grooves
and narrow lands. It was a Goodoien "Match" barrel. I did not try swaged balls in it, but did use .400" x.400's from
a Lyman mould. They shot more ed accurately than the .398", but not by very much.
10 ounce denim at .0225" and .0235" ticking was used in both guns, with all the balls. The curr1948ent 10 ounce denim I have,
bought from a bolt of cloth, measures .021". It's new cloth and seems to shoot well in all of my rifles and smoothbore.

There's always an exception to the norm but as for casting vs swaged I've always believed that there is more danger for getting 'voids' in casting vs swaged. And the main reason for using swaged vs cast is that I've casted since 1948 and my back just won't let me sit at the bench for those old bygone days of yore!
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"

Offline Daryl

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2023, 09:16:03 PM »
I agree - with swaged, there really cannot be any voids however, weighing the balls alleviates the voids.
I used to do that, don't any more.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Swaged balls not so round
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2023, 09:40:18 PM »
I use swaged round balls and no I don't weigh them. I am all for eliminating any variable that might cause a miss but at my age my guns and loads are capable of better shooting than I can give them.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.