Points of a rifle/build that affect accuracy

[HighUintas]

I have been wondering what parts of a Longrifle have a significant impact on accuracy.

Considering the target rifles seem to always have hooked breeches, I would guess that it promotes accuracy, which makes sense. With a bold rifle, you only want 1 recoiling surface... The recoil lug. Having the action screws touching the inside of the stock holes or having the rear surface of the tang of the action butted up against a stock inlet will act as a second recoiling surface and make it less accurate. This seems to be relatable to hooked breech rifles. They will recoil against the tang/standing breech and if you've slotted the barrel underlugs properly, that will be the only recoiling surface.

Is the above correct?

If so, is the accuracy potential of a long tang double screw rifle (like a southern mountain rifle) less than a short tang single screw Pennsylvania school rifle?

The other part I'm wondering about is barrel inlet tightness. The best accuracy in modern guns comes from the action being glued into the stock, so there is zero movement.  It seems that glueing the barrel isn't relatable to a longrifle, but does this idea seem to hold where the tighter the fit the better? Or would a super sloppy loose inlet be better?

Of course, consistent ignition is a must but I'm not really asking about that part.

Is there anything else to consider in the stock/barrel interaction?

[Mike Brooks]

Dead wrong. Hooked breeches are fine for shotguns but not something you want for an accurate rifle. You want the back of your barrel properly fitted at the breech. It doesn't have to be bedded, just properly inlet. Slotted barrel lugs for your pins are critical as well.

[smylee grouch]

Agree, I would want the breech end solid and bedded so.

[HighUintas]

Dead wrong. Hooked breeches are fine for shotguns but not something you want for an accurate rifle. You want the back of your barrel properly fitted at the breech. It doesn't have to be bedded, just properly inlet. Slotted barrel lugs for your pins are critical as well.

I guess I need some education!

I was thinking target rifles, like the kit that Rod England sells (can't remember the type) were a hooked breech and that some of the other American made target oriented ML were hook breech.

Are they not?

[Daryl]

Hooked breeches CAN be accurate, but - a solid breech has the potential to shoot more accurately.
The fewer moving parts, the better the potential accuracy.

[snapper]

I have two original Rigby's and two replica Alex Henry's long range ML and all 4 are a hooked breach.
This setup is common for long range ML.

Fleener

[Randall Steffy]

Should we consider that a hooked breech may be a concession to convenience rather than a prerequisite to accuracy?

[rich pierce]

Should we consider that a hooked breech may be a concession to convenience rather than a prerequisite to accuracy?

That’s my vote!

[rich pierce]

I have seen several chunk guns with a raised saddle in the middle of the half stock barrel channel, often cushioned by a single large O-ring, and the barrel having a tapped screw hole there, with a bolt pulling the barrel down to the cushioned saddle. The rest of the barrel was free-floating. It’s possible these builds were patterned after modern bench guns, with or without proof that the s approach improves accuracy in a muzzleloader. So, 2 contact points; the breech and this cushioned saddle. I had such a gun with a side-slapped lock. It had several owners over the years and did well at the York shoots. It’s not really in my wheelhouse and I sold it to another Gemmer club member when we moved to Vermont. Not many chunk gun matches here!  Mostly woods walks and snowshoe biathlons.

[Seth Isaacson]

Some of the serious antebellum and Civil War era target rifles associated with sharpshooters had heavy barrels with hooked breeches that also had a set screw to lock the barrel really securely in place at the breech end. These often did not have forends.

The screw is visible of the trigger guard on this one:

Marshall P. Tidd (1820-1890), Woburn, Massachusetts.
Here are a few others:

Edwin Wesson

William Craig, Pittsburgh, PA

[mikeyfirelock]

If I build a rifle with a hooked breech, I spend some time fitting the breech and tang together.  I think that has a considerable influence on how the rifle performs.  (It might be worth putting a few strips of tape in the bottom of the barrel channel to “ snug things up “ and see if that would close any “ tolerance”  in the tang/hook fit and perhaps improve performance.  ( my Hoosier/ hillbilly ancestry mechanical thinking showing here.)
mikeyfirelock
An addendum……I solder them together to do the inletting.

[bptactical]

When considering the mechanics of "Accuracy" one must consider it in two parts:

A- Hitting your point of aim. Typically pretty simple to address and the greatest variable he who pulleth thine trigger.

B- Consistency. This is the mechanical aspect- you want the machine to do the exact same thing at the exact same time, every time.

A hooked breech IMO is a stout compromise to "B" unless as noted a locking method is employed on the unit.

[Bob Roller]

The high quality long range rifles iike Whitworth and Henry and American dedicated target rifles like the N.G.Whitmore I had were and are
the epitome of muzzle loading rifles for either ball or bullet.I made a loading rod with a spring that when compressed to a certain point had
an indicator that was spring loaded and popped out and made sure the ball or bullet was seated the same way on the powder from one shot to the next.I have a hook breech Don Brown gave me,a finished one that fits precisely and takes a bit of effort to separate and the one I used on my long range rifle was that way as well.Sloppy fits and workmanship are an abomination and have no place in any rifle used in a competitive environment.
Bob Roller

[Pukka Bundook]

As Bob says, a hooked breech needs to fit Right.
This is the set up on the high end M loading target rifles.
As in all things, there is no room for Nearly right.

A  good job of inletting a standard breech and tang is better than a sloppy hooked breech, but a high end hooked breech works and will continue to work.
However!
A target rifle is often best if the barrel is left in the stock for cleaning, as it Can take time to bed after dismounting.
This not always the case, but often enough to mention.

This goes for both types.

[smart dog]

Hi,
A properly fitted standing breech is not going to allow the barrel to move around.  The standing portion should have 2 anchoring points, the tang screw and either a crosspin through a lug on the bottom of the barrel frame or a screw coming up through the trigger guard.  Both the slot in the standing breech and the hook should be tapered toward the top so the hook fits snug when fully seated. None of the modern commercially made standing breeches have those features. Moreover, if your front and rear sights are on the barrel and you register the same sight picture for every shot, how much difference could there really be between a simple tang and standing breech?  If your rear sight is a vernier or peep mounted to the wrist of your stock rather than the barrel, then that might be a different story.

dave

[Daryl]

The standard hooked breeches used today, would give a modern BR shooter fits, where a ten-thousandth or 2 might separate 1st and second place.
With ML's, there is a different level of accuracy concern and more often than not, it's a scored target, not the group size contest.

[HighUintas]

Thanks for all the replies! This is some really great information and is thought provoking for what I may want to build next.

In my current rifle, it is of no concern because the falling hammer and pan igniting within my vision cause a severe flinch, which I've never actually had an issue with in shooting a 12ga slug gun and a 30-06.  I absolutely can't shoot the difference in a great and poorly inlet breech and tang right now, although I did do a very good job on my breech and tang inlet.

Dave, is the tapered slot standing breech and tang available anywhere other than making one yourself?

[smart dog]

Hi,
Yes, the Rifle Shoppe sells some.

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Froze,
A rifle doesn't have to fit like a shotgun for game shooting. There is much more time available to get into a shooting position usually.

Best,
Rich.

[Frozen Run]

Froze,
A rifle doesn't have to fit like a shotgun for game shooting. There is much more time available to get into a shooting position usually.

Best,
Rich.

Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. For context, Rich is referring to a post I made here prior that I had then deleted it from the discussion hoping nobody had read or replied to it, so let me re-post the comment to the best of my memory.

"One aspect of accuracy that is often overlooked is does the rifle fit the shooter? Length of pull, drop, cast off, etc. A lot of times people get so caught up in how much they like how a rifle looks and then they contort themselves to all sorts of unnatural positions shooting it at the range. If the rifle doesn't fit you then you are leaving accuracy on the table, plain and simple." 

I'm not saying you can't be accurate shooting a gun that doesn't fit you, I'm saying you can't be as accurate shooting said gun. Accuracy is determined by the nut behind the butt, it requires being able to apply good form and technique consistently, something that cannot be achieved to as high a degree of precision if you are wrestling with a gun that doesn't fit you proper. 

 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There is much to do with accuracy and consistency, both in the firearm and the shooter.  But the OP was asking about only the rifle, and particularly, about hooked breeches.
As has been stated, a hooked breech must be carefully filed and fitted so there is no movement in it...it must lock up solidly when the barrel is lowered into the channel.  Also, the standing breech must be inlet properly so that it is bedded perfectly against the wood of the stock.  If there is any gap between the steel and the wood, the tang will be allowed to flex and bounce and that is disastrous to accuracy. 
As with the rifles pictured that have no forestock, wood bearing unevenly against the surfaces of the barrel will be problematic.  So when a forestock is used, it must be inlet carefully together with the barrel lugs and keys/pins.  Provision must be made on the fore and aft surfaces of the keys/pins so that they have no influence on the recoiling barrel, other than to hold the wood against the barrel.  Further to that, the escutcheons, if present, are there simply to protect the wood around the keys/pins, not to support them.  The keys/pins should have consistent contact with the stock wood, while the slots in the lugs should have clearance fore and aft.  With all this in mind, it makes sense that a half stocked rifle should have the potential for greater accuracy than a full stocked one.  One item often overlooked is that a rifle will shoot differently if the ramrod is not replaced on every shot.  Also, when shooting from a rest, where the rifle contacts the rest and the nature of the rest, affect its accuracy and consistency
Sights and rifle fit to the shooter are two completely different issues.

[Darkhorse]

The OP did mention parts of a rifle and to that effect I will mention slotting the underbarrel tabs where the pins go through. This is to accomadate the movement of the steel caused by heat and cold.
I never thought about this much, just slotted them as a matter of fact. Then one night before the deer opener I was waxing the outside of my .54 barrel and noticed the front tab didn't look right. BTW I don't mind taking my barrels off and have never noticed it affected accuracy.
Back to the tab...My slotting job was poorly done and the front pin had actually broken through the front tab and bent it up. That kind of pressure "could" poorly effect accuracy. I fixed it in the house just to get by, fully intending to replace the tab later. That was several years ago.
I bent the tab back with pliers and epoxied it back together just to get by for a couple of days. I tried to do a good job of it, looks like I did.

[Jim Kibler]

Slotting underlugs is more to compensate for dimensional changes of wood from changes in humidity and moisture content.  Barrels will change length with changes in temperature, but this is generally much less significant as compared to the humidity issues.

Jim

[flatsguide]

This is as good a time as any to be a name dropper. Ron Long and I were good friends when I live in Denver in the ‘70s. I built my first and only Muzzleloader, a flintlock, with his guidance. It took first place at the 100 yard cross stick event in Sundance Utah with three shots almost a ragged hole. Most of you old timers know Ron as an outstanding competitor and rifle shot along with making Ron’s Locks.
His method of bedding a long rifle was to glass bed the first foot of the barrel, generally to about an inch beyond the first barrel lug. The lugs used 1/16 inch diameter music wire pins. The first lug (from the breech) was not slotted and it was a snug fit with the pin. The rest of the lugs were slotted for expansion. He felt, and shooting confirmed it, that this method produced accurate rifles. Gun blanks need to be relatively dry. Expansion and contraction for that first foot or so from heat and humidity fluctuations proved not to be an issue.
CheersRichard

[HighUintas]

This is as good a time as any to be a name dropper. Ron Long and I were good friends when I live in Denver in the ‘70s. I built my first and only Muzzleloader, a flintlock, with his guidance. It took first place at the 100 yard cross stick event in Sundance Utah with three shots almost a ragged hole. Most of you old timers know Ron as an outstanding competitor and rifle shot along with making Ron’s Locks.
His method of bedding a long rifle was to glass bed the first foot of the barrel, generally to about an inch beyond the first barrel lug. The lugs used 1/16 inch diameter music wire pins. The first lug (from the breech) was not slotted and it was a snug fit with the pin. The rest of the lugs were slotted for expansion. He felt, and shooting confirmed it, that this method produced accurate rifles. Gun blanks need to be relatively dry. Expansion and contraction for that first foot or so from heat and humidity fluctuations proved not to be an issue.
CheersRichard

Very interesting! What's also interesting is that Sundance used to host a ML shoot. I don't believe they do anymore, but sure wish they did. That is a beautiful mountainside!