Author Topic: Achiving collectable status (Read 27040 times)

Dave B · « **on:** June 08, 2008, 05:29:37 PM »

I have been wondering how many rifles must one build to be recognized as desirable to have in a collection. In some respects we have people who are full time making a go of doing this that have built over two hundred pieces. I don't think Wallace Gussler has built that many but his work commands a premium price. Is it he has notoriety as one of the founding fathers of traditional rifle building in our modern age? Maybe a combination of the two. I know that quality work is one thing that sets them aside. I think of those in my area that are in that class. In Washington one of the best builders is Dave Rase. For those of you who have had him set a barrel in to wood know that the man is exacting in his work. His engraving is high quality as well as his carving. Being that he is not working at this full time he makes one or two guns a year. Lucky is the person that is able to score one of his pieces. Jerry Huddleston is another in our area that builds some amazing pieces. He has built a lot of his own equipment to do all his work. He showed me a furnace that he built to pour his gun mounts using the lost wax method. If he needs some thing he has the talent to make it happen. Ron Scott down in Southern Oregon is another that has been building for a long time that has become known for quality work with his knock dead gorgeous Jaeger rifles. Dave's work is every bit the quality of these two yet not the recognition. The only thing that I think has prevented him from national fame as a builder is press. Ron and Jerry have been written up numerous times. We all know him as great inletter of barrels but man can he build a beautiful rifle. Another one that comes to mind that is a great builder is Freddy Harrison out of Tenn. He sells gun wood and is just as down home as you can find. He had several of his rifles out with him when we were still having the Enumclaw show out here. I was entranced with the quality of his work. He had a rifle done in the style of John Noll that looked like the real deal. I stand in awe of these guys work.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2008, 04:31:27 AM »

I don't know what makes that tick, Dave. I wonder about it alot, as I'd like to get a nice chunk of change for my rifles, but who is Tom Curran, anyway?

I think in large part, the famous name builders get themselves published and photographed, go to high visibility events, in other words, build an image that gets put before the public eye. This takes a long time to develop, and much time and money invested. I think some luck plays a big part, too.

About luck: A lucky person is one who prepares himself to be ready when opportunity knocks.

Tom

Ken G · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2008, 03:37:23 PM »

This is a good topic for conversation. I wish it was going on the other board to get lots of different perspectives.

Acer is right on the money. To get a big name you have to work at getting a big name not just doing good work. There are lots of unknow builders that do outstanding work, never get on the internet and never go to shows. (have their own booth). The guys that want to build a name are going to the shows, giving classes, and trying to get pictures published with the NMLA or CLA.

Cheers,
Ken

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2008, 06:57:05 PM »

Let's move it over.

Dave, you start, and then I'll move mine. Ken, you into moving it?

Tom

Move by starting a new thread on the old ALR, copy and pasting you posts from here to there. It helps to have both boards open at the same time on your browser.

Duh. I bet you all know that already.

Again, Tom

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2008, 07:13:42 PM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on June 10, 2008, 06:57:05 PM

Let's move it over.

Dave, you start, and then I'll move mine. Ken, you into moving it?

Tom

Move by starting a new thread on the old ALR, copy and pasting you posts from here to there. It helps to have both boards open at the same time on your browser.

Duh. I bet you all know that already.

Again, Tom

If you really have a big screen and have both open with the same posts and look at both carefully they wil be in 3D!

Sorry to good to pass up!

Ken G · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2008, 08:46:26 PM »

Yes, I'm up for moving it over.

Dave B · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2008, 04:51:12 AM »

I have move it over to the other forum. See you there.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2008, 04:21:44 PM »

I move to move. Which I just did already. I didn't have enough coffee to see it in 3D, but one more cup and everything will seem more vibrant.

Tom

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2008, 04:32:07 PM »

Dave, I put a reference to this post in the Building section, with a link, to make it easy to find the topic. I believe it belongs where you post it, but not many folks will see it. So this will help, methinks. Also get that section a little more action.

T

Dave B · « **Reply #9 on:** June 15, 2008, 07:49:35 AM »

Hey I just noticed Acer your old post score is growing exponentially there. whats up with that. It was only at 9K a couple of weeks ago and now its at 15K

..... well I guess it really isnt exponential :-[but thats still alot of posts. You arent cheating are you $:-\$

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2008, 12:29:50 AM »

I don't care if they ever collect my guns, but before I croak I would love to build one that would sell for $10K......Hey, I still got a few years!!

lew wetzel · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2008, 01:12:47 AM »

i would love to think that one of my guns would be in a private collection or in a museum someday.or at least handed down through the ages.

Randy Hedden · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2008, 02:21:05 AM »

I don't know that any of the guns I have built are in collections, but I do know that some of my powder horns and rum horns are in personal collections and will never be used for their intended purpose.

Randy Hedden

B Shipman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2008, 07:30:46 AM »

None of you guys have this right. The difference is the difference between craftsmanship and art. It may have nothing to do with publicity. The customer that makes the bucks is the one that can rcognize art before anybody else does. It has nothing to do with effort, at least not necessarily.Example: Hershall House rifles are quickly made. They work just fine. For decades people have been copying his "look". A craftsman may spend twice the time and a House rifle is going to be worth more. Example: Steve Alexander. Never heard of him? Makes English sporting rifles. The late Lynton Makenzie, who used to do his engraving and worked for the gunhouses in London, took him across the pond to get an opinion. The opinion from Purdey"s and Holland & Holland was that the work was the best that ever was- including Manton. He"s busy with a few wealthy customers charging whatever he wants to.Craftsmanship and effort and art but to an incredible level. Dead opposite of Hershall House.Monte Mandarino. All by himself. Six figures. HIGH 6 figures. Booked for life. I doubt 5% of the board has even heard of him.I personally think Allen Martin is dirt cheap right now.And I have no idea what he charges.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2008, 09:00:41 PM »

One more thing to consider... Not everyone can appreciate top of the line work and differentiate it between lesser work. There's a reason why some are more widely appreciated than others. With that being said; however, even someone who does top notch work must have a certain amount of exposure to get wide spread recognition.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2008, 09:56:40 PM »

Bill, we can duke this out at Dixon's.....

If you do the best work in the world, it will not sell unless you show it to the right people. Just because the work is top notch, doesn't make it an automatic success. The other half of the equasion to success is SALESMANSHIP, you are selling YOU, promoting YOU.

For an artist to be COLLECTIBLE he must produce a certain QUANITY of work.

Randy Hedden · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2008, 10:34:07 PM »

Bill,

I think that Steve Alexander is kind of an anomaly in the world of contemporary muzzle loading gun smithing. I remember a few years ago when he was selling his fine English sporting rifles for $25,000 each and building about four per year with a lot of orders.

There is no doubt that Steve does build the finest English sporting rifles I have ever seen.

Btw, the last I knew Steve lived in a little burg not very far from where I live.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

B Shipman · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2008, 06:28:48 AM »

Jim, I agree that obviously people have to see your work, but it isn't like you have to be constantly in the spotlight, or constantly promote yourself, or be a great salesman. Ian is probably pretty busy and I suspect is the worst salesman in the world.

I'll give you an example. Don Getz was around at the KRA show showing everyone Allen Martin's latest rifle. If everyone didn't already know who he was, if he was unknown, that would have been enough ,I think, to keep him busy for quite some time. And things would go from there.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2008, 02:09:29 PM »

How can you beat that combination: Martin the Builder, with Getz as Sales Rep?

Dixon's is only three weeks away.

tom

Ian Pratt · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2008, 07:16:20 PM »

I don't mean to interrupt the flow of this thread but Bill that's the greatest compliment anybody has ever given me. I tried to be a salesman once but I got a serious rash from the polyester suit.

We now return to your thread in progress

t.caster · « **Reply #20 on:** July 03, 2008, 07:52:39 PM »

Quote from: B Shipman on July 03, 2008, 06:28:48 AM

Jim, I agree that obviously people have to see your work, but it isn't like you have to be constantly in the spotlight, or constantly promote yourself, or be a great salesman. Ian is probably pretty busy and I suspect is the worst salesman in the world.

Dangit, I don't get no respect....I thought I was the worst salesman! I don't display at shows or go to big shoots anymore, and I haven't been to Dixons since '88 and '90, never been in MuzzleBlasts, so nobody outside mid-Michigan knows me, except you guys on this forum. But I have a steady backlog of work anyway. My guns seem to sell themselves and I get orders by word of mouth through past customers. Almost all my customers have come back for a second rifle or smoothbore, a couple have come back three or four times! I have turned down a lot of projects, because it is not what I like building or I don't like to get backed up much more than a year. That's only about 3 or 4 projects a year, and I know guys with 10 or 12 backed up. I won't keep someone out there waiting that long! My point here is not to promote or brag about myself, I am content in my anonimity and I keep busy enough as is. I hope that didn't sound like a sales pitch, I just think there must be a lot of guys in the same boat who don't seek a lot of noteriety, but make absolutely stunning rifles at there own pace and for there own contentment.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2008, 08:19:11 PM »

Ian, I guess Bill didn't think you could read, either.

Are you going to Dixon's this year? I'm going Thu Fri Sat Sun. My buddy Roger Vincent is coming down Fri. He loves guns. It's but three weeks now, isn't it? I have to start making a pile of stuff to bring.

T

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #22 on:** July 04, 2008, 01:04:41 AM »

Quote from: B Shipman on July 03, 2008, 06:28:48 AM

Jim, I agree that obviously people have to see your work, but it isn't like you have to be constantly in the spotlight, or constantly promote yourself, or be a great salesman. Ian is probably pretty busy and I suspect is the worst salesman in the world.

I'll give you an example. Don Getz was around at the KRA show showing everyone Allen Martin's latest rifle. If everyone didn't already know who he was, if he was unknown, that would have been enough ,I think, to keep him busy for quite some time. And things would go from there.

Think you are right Bill. It's at least a good feeling to believe that somebodys work is what really counts. Kind of how it ought to be.

Jim Filipski · « **Reply #23 on:** July 04, 2008, 03:12:47 AM »

Ok Guys... I get a few photos in MB & Ml in th 90's Next thing you know I'm building guns for folks.... yeah! I'm loving it. But That is not were my heart is. I have at least three guns in the shop with my name ( idea.. on them since 95!) I'm building some kits & custom jobs, that I'm really not into! Am I doing good work ...$#*! I have to that is what is expected of me.... Am I enjoying my work? Well it depends... If I'm learning about historical firearms ( recent Jaeger build) it is exciting ( mostly) If I'm called upon to create something that another builder does sooooo much better......it is a sentence!
Lads, Be lucky you can express yourself! because if you find the niche You may be doin things you don't want ta! but the money has been passed and ya hav ta!
I'm not a long time builder ( only been at it since 83!) I've done my share of good guns & done my share of kits & "you really want that's!". ......( To pay my bills)

Just would like to get back to the enjoyment of the "challenge" of building a special gun for no one" but me!
My 2 cents!
Jim

Dphariss · « **Reply #24 on:** July 09, 2008, 10:12:06 AM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on June 10, 2008, 04:31:27 AM

I don't know what makes that tick, Dave. I wonder about it alot, as I'd like to get a nice chunk of change for my rifles, but who is Tom Curran, anyway?

I think in large part, the famous name builders get themselves published and photographed, go to high visibility events, in other words, build an image that gets put before the public eye. This takes a long time to develop, and much time and money invested. I think some luck plays a big part, too.

About luck: A lucky person is one who prepares himself to be ready when opportunity knocks.

Tom

I know a man, Don King, who was doing very nice work in the 1960s. By the 80s he realized people were ordering guns from him then selling them for a profit since he worked too cheap. His guns float through TOW and I saw a couple of his guns at the CLR show back when I made it one year. But he is pretty much unknown. Hs not built a rifle in about 10 years and probably only one in the last 20+-. He is now 75. His guns still do not bring what they should. But they are collectable.

I traded this rifle out of the original owner, but needed to pay a doctor bill... Should have made payments to the doc. Still kick myself. It shot great and I killed several deer with it. Lock had engraving on the internals as well.
It was made late 70s IIRC.
I still have one of his rifles but its not in the same class as this one.
Dan

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Author Topic: Achiving collectable status (Read 27040 times)

lew wetzel

Ian Pratt