Author Topic: Help identifying an antique rifle  (Read 1661 times)

Offline AntinAth

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Help identifying an antique rifle
« on: November 21, 2023, 08:43:02 PM »
Greetings,

My knowledge of firearms is pretty limited, however , after a recent visit at my familys old home i discovered a rifle, in a pretty bad shape, hidden in the attic. My best guess is that it is a caplock rifle, bears a reseblance to the

1853 Enfield as far as i can tell. It seems hopless and probably impossible to restrore but it could be a family relic so i am i terested to know more about its type. Every bit of help will be greatly appreciated. Cheers!



P.S The original family home is at a mountain village in Greece (if it helps).








Offline Daryl

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2023, 10:01:10 PM »
I see this is your first post.
Welcome to the ALR.
Do you have the barrel? :)
The stock and lock plate look about right for an 1853 through 61, but not the hammer- to slim.
Makes me think this is a sporting rifle, perhaps made with Enfield parts? The comb looks too high(wrist/comb) as well as the butt stock being too deep.
That's my impression, however there are much better historically inclined people here.
Seems to me, all of the Enfield models had 2 lock bolts as well.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 10:05:20 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline AntinAth

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2023, 12:53:02 AM »
Happy to be here!
Unfortunately this is all that’s left. The house is in a sorry state, full of mold and humidity. Thanks for your input in any case. That is actually a very interesting proposition. Has it happened a lot in the past? I mean making this kind of changes on a rifle. I don’t know much sadly. I am trying to learn more in order to acquire a bolt action rifle. Picking the best one should be another post in the future  :)

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2023, 04:59:02 PM »
Welcome Antin!

To add to what Daryl said above, yes, it looks quite similar to the P '53, but the lock and stock are not cut for the front sidenail  (lock screw) as is the P '53.
The hammer looks very nicely shaped!
Could you give us a close-up of the lock, and possibly lock work, and lock mortise?

All the best,
Richard.

Offline AntinAth

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2023, 09:17:18 PM »
Thanks mate! Looks like a chill community.
Ok there you go..
I am afraid to remove any parts since i dont have the necessary skills. Hope you can make out something.
Is a rifle at this state even repairable? Would it be worth the trouble?










 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2023, 09:49:52 PM »
Appears to be a sporter made with some of an Enfield parts, to me. While the stock shape is good, the inletting, especially the breech area was particularly poorly done
in my opinion, along with the excavation for the ram-rod, not drilled. It is a nicely shaped hammer, albeit badly corroded.
All of the metal is in that condition, unfortunately.
Imho, the shaping and design of the butt stock is it's only redeeming feature. The lock's mechanism will tell if anything is redeemable.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline AntinAth

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2023, 10:24:43 PM »
I see.. Yes the engraving seems high end and looks better in hand. The hammer can be pulled back and released with the trigger albeit difficultly. In any case i dont think there are many specialistsn in Greece to restore it so it will likely stay as it is. Was the usage of older rifles parts a common practise? When could a sporting rifle like this be made? Thanks again for the usefull input!

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2023, 05:20:03 PM »
I see.. Yes the engraving seems high end and looks better in hand. The hammer can be pulled back and released with the trigger albeit difficultly. In any case i dont think there are many specialistn in Greece to restore it so it will likely stay as it is. Was the usage of older rifles parts a common practise? When could a sporting rifle like this be made? Thanks again for the usefull input!

I know very little about the history of Greece after the mid-fifteenth century, so take everything I saw with a grain of salt.  ;) My wild guess would be somewhere between 1860 and 1950.

The use of old parts to create a composite weapon was pretty common wherever compatible parts and poverty coincided. Lots of poverty in 19th and 20th century Greece...Lots of violence as well. The inletting and lack of a proper ramrod hole, combined with decent stock shaping suggest to me that whoever stocked it was a competent woodcarver but had little or no previous experience stocking guns and lacked specialized tools. It has also been repaired to fix a split behind the hammer, so it likely saw some service before the barrel was lost.

If that is an Enfield lock, than it is more likely to be an 1842 or an 1851 lock, not the 1853 model - the hammer is slenderer and has a more pronounced spur on the trigger than the 1853, I think. I doubt that such a thing would be floating around the Balkans prior to the Crimean War, when they were replaced by the brand-new 1853 pattern. If is a civilian lock then the lock might conceivably date to the 1840s, based on the existence of military locks of that shape - I know little about British sporting guns of the percussion period, though, and others here may have better answers than I. The actual gun would have been long enough afterwards for the parts to become "spare," of course. As for the latest it could have been made, I wouldn't rule out the 1940s, which saw both Axis occupation and the Greek Civil War following, which ended in 1949. Based on that repair and probable significant length of service I'd hypothesize that it wasn't primarily made as a last-ditch partisan weapon in the 1940s to be discarded when a better weapon came along, but that is just a guess.

If you want to nail it down further, trying to figure where that buttplate was made and where might be a place to start. I wouldn't assume that it is English, BTW.

Edited to add: It just occurred to me that the front sidescrew hole has been filled in. The lockplate has been worn or filed away there also, prior to inletting...It seems unlikely that the guy that made that triggerguard would bother fill in the screwhole, so I wonder if that lock on its third stock...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 05:32:32 PM by Elnathan »
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline AntinAth

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2023, 07:19:03 PM »
That’s a @!*% good analysis mate. Also, I am willing to bet you have a better grasp of Hellenic history than the average Greek. Anyway, how would one research the buttplate? What tools are there online? Sorry but I am fairly new to this area. Could a piece lake this be ever restored? Thanks again!

Offline Daryl

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2023, 09:20:30 PM »
The lack of a front lock bolt/screw means it is not a military lock of Enfield origin.
The hammer appears also to be a sporting hammer.
The butt stock is of English Sporting Rifle design.
The butt plate was very highly cast-engraved or carved and also is not a military butt plate.
The barrel tang appears to be the standard of at least the 1863 Enfield Musketoon.
The forend appears to be a damaged sporting rifle's forend in design.
Quite obviously, the barrel the stock is for, is a round one, likely an "old military" barrel.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2023, 12:57:37 AM »
I believe the last pic does show a front lock bolt.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2023, 01:04:25 AM »
The lack of a front lock bolt/screw means it is not a military lock of Enfield origin.
The hammer appears also to be a sporting hammer.
The butt stock is of English Sporting Rifle design.
The butt plate was very highly cast-engraved or carved and also is not a military butt plate.
The barrel tang appears to be the standard of at least the 1863 Enfield Musketoon.
The forend appears to be a damaged sporting rifle's forend in design.
Quite obviously, the barrel the stock is for, is a round one, likely an "old military" barrel.

The lock originally had a front bolt that has been filled in, and that area has been damaged and appears to have been inlet into the stock in that condition. Dunno what it is, but it had a front lock bolt at one point.

Quote
Anyway, how would one research the buttplate? What tools are there online? Sorry but I am fairly new to this area. Could a piece lake this be ever restored? Thanks again!

Auction sites are the only places online I can think of. Perhaps some members here can recommend some books on 19th century British and European sporting guns, but I'm afraid I've reached the limit of my expertise (and possibly beyond!)

If you mean restoration to shooting condition, I think you will run into the problem of the axe that has had it head replaced twice and its handle thrice...You are missing the barrel and everything else is so corroded that by the time you polish everything up, install a new barrel, and replace everything that needs replacing it will probably be mostly new anyway. If it were mine, I'd just wipe it off and hit it with pastewax to stabilize it, possibly tie a dowel in the ramrod channel to give it some visual balance (I suspect the original barrel was held on by a band at the front of the stock where it is dark, as I don't see any provision for keys), and hang it on the wall as a conversation piece.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Daryl

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2023, 09:41:59 PM »
You're right. Missed the front screw hold filled.
The stock, on the other hand, is a Sporting Rifle configuration, not military, imho.
So - made from parts and not in a condition to restore to shooting condition, either.
To restore the gun would cost more than it's value, a LOT more & just as Elnathan noted.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline AntinAth

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Re: Help identifying an antique rifle
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2023, 01:07:10 AM »
Thank you all for the valuable information! Never would have figured it out on my own. Yeah restoring it was a long shot. It will make a fine decoration and part of the family history. Cheers!