Author Topic: projectiles  (Read 5964 times)

YORKTOWNE54

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projectiles
« on: December 25, 2009, 10:05:04 PM »
Anyone have an idea for projectile other than rb for a 1 in 70 twist full stock flint, green mtn barrell. I am afraid accuracy will be a problem for anything else.Looking for a wider wound channel, or in other words "blood trail"

roundball

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2009, 10:18:19 PM »
A deep groove round ball barrel usually doesn't do all that great with a conical if that's what you're thinking...and they wouldn't make a "wider" hole as they'd be the same caliber...but should give more penetration from the heavier weight.

Could you mention the caliber / load you're currently using?

Reason I ask is that if you're not already getting complete pass throughs with your current PRB load, bumping up the powder charge can help that, which usually promotes a better blood trail.

However, a stout 'big game' powder charge rarely needs much of a blood trail because they're usually down in sight if you deliver a good heart shot.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 10:26:02 PM by roundball »

Offline hanshi

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2009, 10:41:37 PM »
A prb does put them down quicker than a conical and I've always found a good blood trail even when the prb didn't exit.  Hit them right and a prb hit deer simply won't run far.
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YORKTOWNE54

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2009, 11:25:08 PM »
54 cal, 95 grain FF .018 ticking

Dave Faletti

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2009, 11:28:17 PM »
To get significant expansion and still have penetration will require a projectile with more mass than the slow twist will stabilize sufficiently. Like Roundball said if you can get a pass thru you have as good as it will get with that rifle.

roundball

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2009, 12:28:49 AM »
54 cal, 95 grain FF .018 ticking

IMO, that's a very decent deer hunting load...mine is 90grns 3F out of a 33" GM barrel.
All my deer hunting is in fairly thick mixed hardwoods with most shots in the 30-50 yard range...longest shot ever was a buck that stepped out and stopped broadside in an old loggers road at 70 steps...heart shot with a .530" gave complete pass through, he sprinted 25-35 yards and went down in sight.

Wouldn't want to exceed your gun's manufacturer's max load data of course, but usually most .54's are published at least up to 120grns Goex 2F...so you could consider bumping up some more powder if you wanted to.

But to be honest, if you're shooting inside 100 yards with a .54cal, and avoid the big shoulder bones at distance...go low for the heart right behind the elbow, or even a couple inches higher through both lungs, the load you listed should get it done every time with a short drag back to your stand.

You've got a good solid deer rifle and load right there...now...something we all go through depending on where we are in our "hunting curves"...and we'd all like to think we can put them in the 10 ring at 100 yards...but reality is we usually can't and you've got to learn "your max distance" to take a shot while hunting.

By max distance for example, I mean what is the maximum distance at which you can ALWAYS put those balls in a 3" aim point sticker...from hunting positions...at the range...every shot, every time, without fail.  Might only be 25 yards...or 40...or 65...but you have to find out.  Because under hurried hunting conditions, poor light, little or no rest, adrenalin flowing...most folks best group is at least twice that size...6" or more...find you real max, hunt within those limitations, and you'll have a short drag every time.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 07:58:48 PM by roundball »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2009, 05:01:47 AM »
Anyone have an idea for projectile other than rb for a 1 in 70 twist full stock flint, green mtn barrell. I am afraid accuracy will be a problem for anything else.Looking for a wider wound channel, or in other words "blood trail"

If you have a 50 or 54 or even a 45 there should be no problem with deer. The "common knowledge" that conicals are superior is based either on a lack of experience with the RB or the need to sell conicals or advertising for conicals depending on the source. It has little to do with killing power.
In my experience there is little difference in how far the deer travels no matter what its shot with.
I have seen deer run like $#*! after a near perfect hit with a 7MM mag with lung tissue hanging out the exit and drop dead in 40 yards shot with a BP 38-40 that makes pencil sized holes in the lungs.
Learn to shoot the rifle well, place the shot well and the deer is going to die. Some, a very few, will drop at the shot, some will fold in 25-40 yards, some will run 150-200 if already on red alert (just a few seconds for a deer on afterburner).
Using a conical will change NOTHING.
If you want a larger blood trail etc get a 69 caliber PRB rifle. But they will still likely run 25-50 yards.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

northmn

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2009, 03:32:56 PM »
Amen to what Roundball and Dpharrsis has told you.  Like Dan, I have seen deer shot in the lungs go down from a pipsqueak caliber and run like H--l when hit with a relative canon.  When you open them up the one that ran may have had its internals turned to jelly.  Conicals do not give more damage, in fact due to the fact that they are driven at less velocity, may give less.  They just take out the extra energy on a tree or dirt behind the deer.  Read the thread on 50 and moose.  Daryl has mentioned a couple of times about a 54 going to the offside of a big bull at 175 yards.  My 54 is similar to yours and I use 90 grains 2f Swiss which is very impressive for deer.  Over the years I have seen an increase in the amount of brainwashing we have been receiving as to "power".  My 270 was too much of a good thing on deer.  If you hit the shoulders you threw them away.  My 30-30 load with a cast bullet does not waste meat and puts them in the freezer just as well, as does my 50 ML and my 54.  No ML gives the high velocity needed for the dramatic performance one sees with modern cartridges, which is not neccessarily a bad thing.  I have seen a few deer liver hit with modern cartridges, one a 300 mag, a couple were mine.  Usually they are found after running a ways very weak but with their head up.  The one I found stretched out stone cold dead was one I hit with a 45-70 HP loaded with 70 grains 2f.  Less damage to the liver but a very dead deer. 


DP

Offline Don Getz

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2009, 07:07:01 PM »
Great advice Roundball.  One of the best sum-ups on a hunting gun that I have seen.   It's nice to have a gun that shoot
1" groups, but, lets get real, you don't really need that to hit a deer.......3" accuracy will work just fine.........Don

roundball

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 12:00:58 AM »
I continue to be amazed at the efficiency and effectiveness of the simple lead round ball.

I've taken deer during the 60s/70s/80s with .30-30, .30-06, .35Rem, .264WinMag, .20 & .12ga slugs and buckshot.
But I have never seen deer drop so fast...and so consistently close in sight...as they have for the past 18 years in reaction to a patched round ball through the heart.
I still just shake my head after the shot as I watch them sprint past a few trees and collapse still in sight of me...and taking deer with those PRBs out of a Flintlock..well, it just doesn't get any better than that for me.

Sometimes after a shot I've sat there a minute wondering if a settler might have ever hunted through where I was a couple hundred years earlier with his Flintlock & PRB...just an incredible combination for deer hunting.

Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2009, 07:52:25 PM »
Yorktowne,

While I'm not convinced that all things equal a ball is just as effective as a high powered rifle, I will say that they are adequate.

I have noticed the challenge of picking up a blood trail with roundball-hit deer.  But I've begun to thing that this is due in part to the fact that A) there's a huge cloud of smoke after the shot. B) there's only time for one shot.

Whenever we think of hitting deer with a high-powered rifle we think of the shots where they drop in their tracks.  But when I think hard enough, I remember hitting a doe with a .30-30.  First shot was in the lungs, second shot in the guts, and third shot in the butt, and that put it down.  Of course I didn't truly know where I hit it the first time until after I examined its corpse.  I could have easily let it go with perforated lungs and tracked it, but since a follow up shot was as quick as jacking the lever . . .

Had that same situation presented itself with a muzzle loader, I would have hit the doe in the lungs and I would not have seen much through the cloud of smoke.  I have learned that it is best to pay attention to exactly where they were when I shot so sometimes I don't even see them running away.  I would have found hair, then combed the area looking for blood.  Typically I won't find blood until ten or twenty yards away from where the deer stood at impact.  Then the blood trails starts out weak and gets easier as I go.  Some times the distance will be 100 yards.  This seems like forever in the Wisconsin brush, but in reality the deer probably expired in less than 10 seconds - a perfectly humane kill.

Between when I found hair and when I find the first drop of blood I'm cursing the roundball.   But after more consideration I realize it's not the roundball - it's the blackpowder and the muzzle loading.  With the .30-30 because of that third shot which took out the hind quarter and the smokeless powder I did not need to track - just walk up to the dead animal because I could see it go down. 

roundball

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2009, 09:03:17 PM »
Another good thing to remember for those times in thick cover when you're momentarily screened off by the smoke is that deer turn and run back the way they came because they know that area is safe, just having 'cleared" it as they picked their way through it.

They might lunge forward at the shot as a reflex reaction to being hit but it's always been my experience that they'll immediately make a tight turn to try and go back the way they just came...if its so thick you couldn't see (or hear) them fall, at least that pinpoints / narrows down the direction of a trail to look for...

Offline hanshi

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2009, 10:24:41 PM »
I agree on the superiority of the prb.  I've taken very large numbers of deer with cartridges ranging from the .22 Hornet to 45/70, .338 not to mention the .357, .41 & .44 mags in revolvers.  The only modern cartridge I've found that drops deer equal to or a little better than a prb is the .250/3000 Savage, a tiny round of modest  power.  With two different rifles in that caliber I've taken so many deer that a valid comparison is easy.  It's never taken more than one shot to drop any deer (most with a .50, many with a .45 and one with a .54).  Nearly half the time they drop DRT or within a few feet.  The damage is always impressive, more so than most centerfires.  And I've only recovered a very few flattened balls.  Through and through is the norm. 

I agree with Roundball on the abilities of prb.  Soft lead, wide bore, round ball, a lethal combination.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline longcruise

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Re: projectiles
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2009, 12:15:15 AM »
I've always found that it's important to put your ears to work immediatley after the shot.  Especially with ml where the smoke hiders vision.  A hit deer makes a lot of noise as it runs and often that noise terminates quickly with a single crash as it goes down.  If you don't hear noise, it probably dropped on the spot when you could not see it.
Mike Lee