Author Topic: Patchbox screws  (Read 2390 times)

Offline Scott Bumpus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
Patchbox screws
« on: December 17, 2023, 12:53:04 AM »
What size wood screws do y’all use to put the brass plate on the end of a wood patchbox. I was going to order some and realized I don’t know the size nomenclature. Thanks
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2023, 01:40:51 AM »
I use little ones from the hardware store.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Scott Bumpus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2023, 01:48:00 AM »
And here I was about to get the big ones.
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2023, 02:09:51 AM »
If someone else doesn't provide a more appropriate reply in the interim, I will tell you what size I use tomorrow.  If memory serves me, they are #4 by 3/8" or 1/2".  No need to buy special screws.  Just buy plated flat-head slotted screws at your local hardware store.  An over-night soak in vinegar will remove the plating.  Chuck them in your drill and file the head into a dome, if desired.

Offline Scott Bumpus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2023, 03:01:03 AM »
Thanks. I had a small bag of them I got from tip Curtis years ago. I used them all or lost them and realized I did not know if they were 4 or 6. Or what   May make a trip to Lowe’s and see what they have. 
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline L. Akers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2023, 03:23:10 PM »
#4 slotted,oval-head from Blacksmith Bolt.  They come black anodized but a coupla days in vinegar takes care of that.

Offline Cody Tetachuk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2023, 04:53:00 PM »
IMO, finding suitable wood screws that were "suitable" right out of the box was always a challenge. In fact, I don't think I ever DID find any. For me, the slots were always too wide and sometimes even off centre. I built a few guns with the "best" screws I could find but near the end I started to weld up the heads and recut the slots. I had a swage block that I made (just block of steel in which I drilled the appropriate size hole and countersunk to the desired depth/width) to swage the countersink into the head. Not only did this make for MUCH nicer screws (IMO) but the countersink in the parts was the exact same pitch as the countersink on the screw heads as they were made with the same countersink.

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2023, 05:28:29 PM »
Just to confirm - I am using #4 x 1/2" zinc plated flat head screws with the zinc removed and the heads domed.  As Cody has said, the slots in all slotted screws tend to be on the wide side these days.  I have had reasonable success swaging them narrower.  Make a swage block having slip-fit holes for various screw sizes and 60 degree countersinks slightly less deep than the heads are high.  Drill the holes all the way through the block so stuck screws can be tapped out.  Drop the screw into the appropriate hole and swage the slot narrower, remove and dome or true up the head.  In my experience, the slots usually close up to the point they need to be recut.  I tend to only do that when matching screws on restoration projects and sometimes have to use a block with an 82 degree countersink.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2023, 05:31:30 PM by bluenoser »

Offline Scott Bumpus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2023, 05:36:37 PM »
Thanks. I’ll order some today
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2023, 06:58:41 PM »
And here I was about to get the big ones.
Look at the favor I did for you! Honestly I don't know anything about screw sizes. I just go to the hardware store and buy what looks right.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2023, 10:20:21 PM »
 :o Lord forbid you should ever have to order something online ;D

Offline mountainman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 470
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2023, 10:27:22 PM »
Why not use brass nails? Drill holes for nails-countersink- peen it- file to flush. Before that use adhesive to keep the plate on the wood.

Offline BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2281
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2023, 01:28:03 AM »
Tenn. Valley Manufacturing (Jack Garner) carries unplated oval headed wood screws in packs of 50 $10 assorted or all one size.
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2023, 02:09:54 AM »
I wonder if the slots might be a more acceptable width.  A bag of 100 #4 x 1/2" plated flat heads is $5.40 at Bolt Depot.  That is a little over 1/4 the price at TVM - but requires more work.

Offline Scott Bumpus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2023, 02:26:55 AM »
Mike. I tried to refer to originals for screw sizes but none of the great makers labeled their screws with size. Hahahaha
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline Cody Tetachuk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2023, 02:34:00 AM »
Why not use brass nails? Drill holes for nails-countersink- peen it- file to flush. Before that use adhesive to keep the plate on the wood.
Interesting you would suggest nails. I use wood small screws, counter sink them slightly and file them off to mimic iron nails. I like the colour contrast with the brass box and they hold because...they are screws. Often used "screws" on the finial and faux nails on the side plates. 

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2023, 04:00:27 AM »
Interesting you would suggest nails. I use wood small screws, counter sink them slightly and file them off to mimic iron nails. I like the colour contrast with the brass box and they hold because...they are screws. Often used "screws" on the finial and faux nails on the side plates.
[/quote]

That's easier than making a new antique looking iron nail.
In the pic, On the left, one of Jacob Dickerts' original nails. On the right, my smaller copy, needed for the gun.


« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 04:03:29 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Scott Bumpus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2023, 05:15:07 AM »
That’s a good idea on the nails. Cool pic. I may try it
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2023, 06:10:14 PM »
I have tried nails for this and they didn't hold. I do use nails in other applications and they do just fine.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 714
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2023, 06:55:30 PM »
For 'wood screws' I usually use coarse thread machine screws.
They hold extremely well in any hardwood. Most of the Euro (modern) gunmakers use them in butt plate, trigger guard, grip caps, ect.
A pilot hole is needed for each when installing.

#6 is probably the most common size I use for trigger guards, toe plates and other such applications.
I make those from round stock on a lathe. A quick process that allows a head diameter and style to fit what ever countersink size and configuration I may have cut in the piece.

Most often a simple plunge cut with an end mill is what I do so a squared bottom straight sided hole of some standard dia is what I have.
The shank of the new screw gets threaded with a die while still in the lathe.
Leave the head extra 'high' for a rough hacksaw slot, then you can do the extra fitting for a flush or round head and end up with a nice N&S slot if you want to. I doubt many of the makers bothered with that, but sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

I cut the final screw slot with a simple jewelers saw using a thick width blade. .020 thick gives a nice thin shot then I usually very slightly run a very thin needle file that is Safe on the back side thru the slot to taper the slot very slightly at the top edge.
Not enough to be noticable as a taper, but enough to widen the slot visually so it doesn't look like the screws came off of a Perazzi.
But they are not the Hardware Store size slots that look like they were cut with  doubled up hack saw  blades.

For the really small screws, a simple 4-40 machine screw thread works good.
A 1/4" to 3/8" thread length will hold just as tight and secure as a coarse tapered wood screw thread in hard wood.
A pilot hole is first drilled for each install and the screws go in easily. I usually use a bit of bar soap on the screw threads  for easy install.

I make them the same way.

There are a few places where you can buy machine screws like this with acceptable narrow slots.
They are usually zinc coated but that can disappear quickly with an acid bath or burn it off with a propane torch.
Yes stay up wind of the smoke, it's toxic. So is everything else in life I'm constantly told.
Most of the vendors want a minimum order of a 6 lifetime supply of the things, while we are just looking for a handful.
Aspen Fasteners is one.
So it takes some searching if you want to buy instead of make.

I don't mind making some screws for a build. We are supposed to be Building a Rifle after all.


Offline Not English

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2023, 11:36:59 PM »
I try and find unplated screws, but it's getting harder. My method is to countersink the screws deep enough so that the slot is proud of the end plate. I then file off the exposed screw head. This leaves a nice very secure "nail like" pin. Doing it this way makes it easier to find screws. It doesn't matter if the screw is domed or flat head.

Offline mountainman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 470
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2023, 04:25:06 AM »
Why not use brass nails? Drill holes for nails-countersink- peen it- file to flush. Before that use adhesive to keep the plate on the wood.
Interesting you would suggest nails. I use wood small screws, counter sink them slightly and file them off to mimic iron nails. I like the colour contrast with the brass box and they hold because...they are screws. Often used "screws" on the finial and faux nails on the side plates.
To my understanding he is talking about a wooden patchbox, with the brass being on the end where the butt plate meets, I don't believe he is talking about a 4 piece patchbox.
I agree screws look nice on a 4 or 2 piece patchbox..

Offline steven baker

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2023, 01:40:36 PM »
My ones come from old furniture that been kicking around in the basement. Also small screws that need replacing around my house come in handy . Not all make the grade after they are cleaned up though.Take care Steven.

Offline elk killer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2023, 04:00:28 PM »
Just order a whole bunch of sizes from Muzzleloader Builders Supply
Good iron screws and dirt cheap. All sizes
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Patchbox screws
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2023, 05:31:35 PM »
How large des the head need to be? I buy from Ace hardware or where ever. Then crown the heads with a fine grit belt sander or wet ot dry paper over a stiff piece of leather or what ever. Polish to 600 at least.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine