"This Old Gun" - Halfstock Percussion, NC/GA?

[Sparta391]

Good morning,

I've been doing some genealogy and gun research with the family over the holidays around this muzzleloader passed down my father's side in Montgomery County, GA. While the family passed through Robeson County, NC in the early 1800's and saw numerous Civil War service members, Alexander Johnson was a smaller gunsmith in this lineage until the 1880s. I've been told the maker's mark on the barrel, "Martin Carrel", would be the original manufacturer of this weapon. Has anyone run across Martin Carrel or Alexander Johnson in their research or acquisitions through the years? Can you provide any information on the rifle's origin, style, and value - or where to find such info?

Barrel length - 50"
Caliber - 0.50"
LOP - 15"

[Daryl]

Interesting gun. Can you not "let' the hammer down?

[Tanselman]

The "Carrel" name is a strange one, but there is a listing for Alexander Johnson in Jerry Noble & Tom Morre's compendium, "Gun Trade in America,' that lists

Johnson, Alexander. (b. 1810 - d.1886) Worked in Montgomery County, Georgia. Rifles are known by him.

The same source lists a couple early "Carrel" makers, but they were too early to have made this ca. 1850 rifle. The closest listed name was W. H. Carrel of Vicksburg, Mississippi... just in case someone mis-read a script M as a W when that name was documented.

Can you turn the gun around and take a picture of the back side, so we can see:
1) the shape of the cheekpiece, and
2) the shape of the lock bolt washer on the opposite side from the lock?

Sometimes those details can help identify where a gun is from.

Shelby Gallien

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I think it’s a restocked Martin Carrel. The barrel, if it is indeed 50 inches long, appears to have maker’s marks on the muzzle. I’ve seen one Martin Carrel rifle that came out of the Lumberton area. It was at the Tennessee Longrifle show when it was still held at Norris (John Rice Irwin’s place). From my notes it was 2011. Wayne Estes may have had it. Good luck with your research.

[RAT]

I've seen that identical patchbox on several rifles. When I posted pictures everyone seemed to think New York. The owner of one of the rifles I've examined thought his gun was made in North Carolina. James Johnson in his book "Accouterments Vol 1" attributes another rifle to an "unknown" North Carolina maker. In the November 2017 issue of Muzzle Blasts, James Whisker attributes that same rifle to Patrick Hoy. Hoy was a gunsmith born in Ireland who settled in South Carolina. The last rifle I've seen is on display at the Buffalo Bill Center in Cody.

[Tanselman]

I am one of those who think this patchbox style may be from New York. That was why I asked the poster to show pictures of the back side of the gun, so we could see the lock bolt plate, cheekpiece, etc., "just in case" they gave us a better idea of where this gun was made.

The reason I think this style box may be from New York is pretty simple... there are several known NY rifles with this box. While not common, that's about the only state where we have a couple rifles with this box and a maker's mark. Jennings of Elmira, NY, Sterling of Newburgh, NY, and Fox of NY City each made at least one gun with this box. In addition, the side leaves [with different finials] are found on a number of NY makers' guns. I did a quick scan through Bill Ivey's NC book and did not see this box, or anything close, on any of his pictured NC rifles. Jim Whisker listed Partick Hoy in both his Carolina books, hard and soft covers, but gave no image or description of what the man's guns looked like. So.... some of us tend to point first at NY, since at least we have a couple known guns from there with this box.

I have not read the "Muzzle Blasts" article by Jim Whisker on the Patrick Hoy gun, so I do not know what provenance the rifle had, or what reasoning Jim offered to attribute it to Hoy. Jim usually accepted a collector's word on an attribution of an unsigned rifle when he was heavily photographing guns years ago for his many books on various state's early firearms... and sometimes those "attributions" given to him were wishful thinking by the owners.

Of course, that doesn't mean this style patchbox wasn't used elsewhere, since gunsmiths moved around. But without a signed gun, or an attributed gun where the owner offers solid reasoning for the attribution, it's hard not to lean toward the few marked guns we know about.

Shelby Gallien

[Sparta391]

Hello everyone,

I appreciate the responses. Squatchie, the Martin Carrel of Lumberton would align with my family's journey South. I'm curious if that name and geography is certain enough to rule out a NY gunsmith. Perhaps Alexander Johnson restocked the gun? Does anyone know much about his style? I don't know how a NY gun would end up in Middle GA through Robeson, NC.

Attached are a few pictures of the other side from my grandfather. I will be visiting again soon and can look for closer details/take better pictures. I'm interested if there is a location on the stock a secondary Smith would leave his mark for a restocking later.

[AZshot]

I've got a rifle with that loop at the end of the handrail on the trigger guard.  I've never been able to ID it.  But some carolina rifles used that with iron guards.  Not all the spurs though. 

[Hungry Horse]

 I saw one years ago that had a one piece iron guard, with a loop on the tail. It was supposedly made in Mississippi, and had a back action lock, and a full stock that looked like Chestnut.

Hungry Horse