Author Topic: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?  (Read 1559 times)

Offline Marplot

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Before you begin getting your "powder, patch and ball" aiming in my direction, hear me out!

I acquired an Original Swiss Jaeger .70cal from a knowledgeable collector and he thinks it could be converted back to original easily (by a qualified gunsmith) and keeping the current sideplate. I want it to be like it was when it was born. The rest of the rifle is in perfect condition.

I have seen a few "butchered" and IF mine cannot be converted back as it was, I WILL leave it as it is!

I have reached out to Ron Scott, Oregon as he could be that guy. But not have heard back as to timeline.
https://ronaldscottflintlock.com/RonScott/Welcome.html
 
I ask your help with other QUALIFIED gunsmith who could be do this. As I am in love with my rifle and will not be parted from it for years.

The only change has been done is to have a Treso nipple for safety. I have the "old" nipple, in my safe.









People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2024, 03:04:09 AM »
Looking at that lock I see nothing that says "flintlock" at any point in time,

Bob Roller

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2024, 03:59:20 AM »
Looking at that lock I see nothing that says "flintlock" at any point in time,

Bob Roller
I see a plug in the area where a Frizzen spring would normally be attached.
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2024, 05:39:32 AM »
Bill,
What interested me, was that this lock has a sidenail and a peg at the front to hold the lock in, but on the other side, (where a sideplate often is), there appears to be two sidenails,(or lock bolts)  so the front one is blind or just for show.
A close up of this would be very nice.
Also the way the rear sidenail (lock bolt) is attached to maybe the trigger pin?  It would be great to see this up close too.

It's your gun Bil, but I wouldn't re-convert it, as it would lose all the history it has since conversion. Its a very nice conversion, (European) and someone thought enough about it to have it brought up to date.

All the best,
Richard.

Offline Marplot

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2024, 06:25:17 AM »
Richard, the sideplate has only one bolt that turns with a thumbscrew. I have taken it off for cleaning. The seller thinks it may have been built as a sniper gun for some indications it does not have a bayonet it was not to be in the trenches, and the lock can be easily be removed for cleaning. He had other ideas about this. You know him from the muzzleloading Forum. He seems a very knowledgeable man. BTW I am buying his "other Jaeger."

I admit that I am very new to muzzleloaders and am feeling my way. Learning. But I have made some smart friends and you are one of these. You have some amazing guns and have really "saved" some old guns.

I am looking for history and, especially, quality.

I will go deeper into your other questions and bring back pictures.
People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2024, 07:58:59 AM »
Bill,
I will defer to the recent owner on what he felt the rifle was designed for, and will only say that in my opinion, ( which is worth exactly One, out of all the people on earth!)...
 that I feel sure it was designed as a hunting or target arm;
The lock is too well made and too "sporting" for a military piece.  It is high end  and a lovely lock.
Also Bill, it is a lock from the 1780's at the very earliest,  or later, rather than mid century.

Very best wishes,
Richard.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2024, 10:01:58 AM »
Never was a flintlock  leave it be .
Feltwad

Offline Marplot

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2024, 02:08:41 PM »
If it ever was a percussion, only, it will remain so. I need further research. Please tell me how you know it to be so? Supporting data, please.
People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2024, 03:35:50 PM »
It was Flint. On further examination I can see both plugs for the frizzen spring and what seems to a faint plug for the Frizzen. I very clear picture of the lock in better lighting would settle it.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2024, 04:49:57 PM »
It was Flint. On further examination I can see both plugs for the frizzen spring and what seems to a faint plug for the Frizzen. I very clear picture of the lock in better lighting would settle it.

I agree with Clark, it's easy to see the plugs if you enlarge the photo.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2024, 05:00:23 PM »
Dennis and Clark,

That the lock was originally designed for flint  is beyond question as the filled holes are there.
But the question is, Was it still flint when fitted to this rifle?
As we know, many old locks were altered prior to having been used, so is this one of them?
I believe this gun , by the conversion with drum and nipple Is converted from flint.
(But a Much better conversion than the usual 'drum and nipple!)

The conversion (if it was!) is very neat, and exactly like we should see on a European arm, so for myself I would leave it alone and enjoy it as it is.

C-Bill,
It to me is very interesting it has a twisted barrel, and made by Blachon, in Montagny, (France) or so it appears..
Often called a stub twist.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 05:20:24 PM by Pukka Bundook »

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2024, 05:12:51 PM »
I definitely see the filled taps from the flint hardware. I'd personally leave it as it is. It most likely spent most of its working life as a percussion gun rather than flintlock, and the conversion work is high quality. Unless you have someone that truly can convert this to back flintlock without it looking like a reconversion, it will look nicer as it is. 
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
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Offline WKevinD

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2024, 08:52:07 PM »
The molding edge is not cut back where the hammer would rest on the plate like most flintlocks do.

Kevin

I just looked again, I do see the telltale cut out for a flint hammer. sorry
« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 08:58:32 PM by WKevinD »
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Offline JTR

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2024, 02:50:02 AM »
I don't see how it could not be an original flint rifle, as it has the wood cut away for the flint cock.
On the lock, there are filled screw holes for the frizzen and frizzen spring, plus the soldered or brazed in piece to fit around the bolster. Whether or not this is the original lock, this gun was originally a flintlock.

But to muddy the waters a bit, this lock also has a filled hole for a front lock screw as well. So this lock might not be original to this gun.

John

John Robbins

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2024, 04:13:48 AM »
I don't see how it could not be an original flint rifle, as it has the wood cut away for the flint cock.
On the lock, there are filled screw holes for the frizzen and frizzen spring, plus the soldered or brazed in piece to fit around the bolster. Whether or not this is the original lock, this gun was originally a flintlock.

But to muddy the waters a bit, this lock also has a filled hole for a front lock screw as well. So this lock might not be original to this gun.

John
John, that filled hole for the front screw is the hook on the inside. Or is now anyway.
Psalms 144

Offline JTR

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2024, 05:08:06 AM »
Yes, my mistake, you're right about the hook!
John Robbins

Offline Marplot

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2024, 05:31:32 AM »
This seems correct. "John, that filled hole for the front screw is the hook on the inside. Or is now anyway."






















numbers remove duplicates

If you want additional pictures, please ask and what you want clarified.
People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.

Offline Marplot

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2024, 05:38:03 AM »
Side showing thumb screw and the forward screw.

People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.

Offline flembo

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2024, 05:53:25 PM »
I don't know where you are located, but I can recommend Eric Von Aschwega Flintlocks. He is located in Hudson Mass. I can't say enough about the quality of his work, he is outstanding.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2024, 08:58:54 PM »
It even originally had a detachable pan.
Psalms 144

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2024, 10:30:15 PM »
Hello Cadillac Bill,
You have posted an interesting rifle that has gotten a lot of attention here. I'm hearing you out and have no interest in aiming at you ;-)

Many thoughts come to me regarding your fine acquisition which I want to share.

It certainly was flint when made for the many reasons given. Pukka Bundook mentioned 1780's or later. He is much more knowledgeable than I about European locks, but with the stirrup-connected main spring, I would have thought it dated into the 1800-1820 time frame. Maybe better informed readers will chime in. It certainly was made with two lock bolts. The lock molding relief for the cock arrest shoulder seems awfully shallow on the photos, and makes me wonder if the lock used the very late type of cock arrest using a reinforced lower jaw arresting on a heavily beefed up pan fence. Just speculation.

The names are hard to pin down. Herr in Der Neue Støckel lists many gunmakers named Blachon in St-Etienne, as well as numerous Montagny's there. None of them are paired together. Montagny is also a town nearby, but in his location index, Herr doesn't mention Montagny as a gunmaking center. The area is in eastern France to the west of Geneva, Switzerland.  Tordu is French for "twisted". The lock name I see with difficulty, but looks like "Depri" to me, and the town I can't guess at. Any help? Herr lists 7 "Deprez's" in Liége, Belgium, but nothing closer to "Depri" that I can find. Are there other names or aspects that relate to it being a Swiss rifle?

The conversion impresses me, as do so many European conversions. The pan has been replaced with a nicely designed oversized fence to protect the shooter and wood from the cap detenations. The drum was screwed in as evidenced by the index marks on the bottom, and maybe soldered as well. It was shaped to fit the pan recess in the lock. The lock was made easily removable for cleaning off the corrosive cap residue after each shooting session. That is why the front lock bolt was replaced by the hook that was screwed into its threaded hole in the plate so that the lock could be removed easily using the single new thumb screw. The dummy front lock screw is strictly cosmetic to fill the hole left by the original flintlock front lock bolt. To me, this conversion was well thought out and executed for an early owner who loved that rifle as much as you do.

Now my thoughts on reconversion:To make "it to be like it was when it was born", many questions will have to be answered correctly. Should the cock be double throated (reinforced) or not? Might the original lock have been born with that late FL arrest system using the oversized lower jaw and fence?  Should it have a roller frizzen or roller frizzen spring? Or maybe no roller? Are you willing to discard the thumb screw, remove the front lock hook, and probably remove the "figure 8" washer under the thumb screw, because it was probably put there (replacing the round washer that matched the one under the front lock bolt) when the thumb screw lock removal system was installed at the time of conversion? Was the rifle born with a vent liner? Even the most knowledgeable European rifle specialists will be guessing at answering these questions.

The previous European owner loved your rifle so much that he had her carefully and thoughtfully converted so he could proudly show her off to his friends and compete with her more successfully. He helped her successfully mature and keep up with the times. She can never be "original" again, no matter who guesses at how her reconversion should be done or how well it is accomplished.

In carefully choosing the best specialist on European rifle reconversion, you will certainly encounter a long waiting period. Use that waiting time to lovingly shoot your rifle, clean her easily using that wonderful converted thumb screw system, keep her on the wall with her original nipple in place (she is so much more beautiful that way), and bond with her more and more during your waiting period. You may become as impressed with her in her maturity as most of the rest of us in this thread already are.

So you see, no aiming or shooting, just a comrade in arms happily sharing the wonder of your rifle with you. Maybe you’ll even take her off the waiting list...

Bill Paton
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 10:38:20 PM by Bill Paton »
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Offline Marplot

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2024, 03:53:38 AM »
It would seem to me that the lockplate could be reused and flint assembly reinstalled.

But I am getting tired. Maybe the best thing is to keep it as it is. Certainly it shoots perfectly and shows a "completeness.' Also if the conversion could take a long time and I would miss shooting her.
People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2024, 11:45:49 AM »
It would seem to me that the lockplate could be reused and flint assembly reinstalled.

But I am getting tired. Maybe the best thing is to keep it as it is. Certainly it shoots perfectly and shows a "completeness.' Also if the conversion could take a long time and I would miss shooting her.

Has I said early LEAVE IT BE .
Feltwad

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2024, 06:08:23 PM »
Bill Paton,

Wonderfully thought out reply. 
Its not my gun as you know but I appreciate the thought you put into it.

Re the lock;
By sometime just before 1780 John Twigg amongst others, was using the stirrup to connect the mainspring to the tumbler. 
This was not just an early version needing refinement, but fully fledged beautiful work.  Aslo the wheel on the hammer(frizzen) spring of course.

Bill, I only hope to one day know half the stuff you know.
I do know Some things, but there are huge gaps between them !

Cadillac Bill,
So sorry if this thread is wearing you down.
You said yourself  how you are pretty new to guns of this type, and I suggest you are getting a crash course in their history and details.
I suggest you look into this enchanting rifle as closely as you can, find out all you can, and then make your decision.
Making a decision merely because you feel pressured into it is no good.
Make an informed decision after digging real deep!

Best wishes Bill,

Richard.

Offline Marplot

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Re: Restoring a percussion rifle to it's original state as a flintlock?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2024, 06:33:21 PM »
I am to "non-notify" this thread and the other same thread. There are heated remarks all over the place! ENUFF!

I will just deal with the gunsmiths noted and get their opinion and time-line.

Richard, you have my email and reach out as you will.

1030. I am outa here. Thanks for all your input!
People either survive in the Jungle, or exist in the Zoo. Few recognize the significance of the paradoxical reconciliation of the two. It takes a rare individual who understands how cunning and aggressive one has to be to acquire an Estate in the Jungle.