Author Topic: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)  (Read 1760 times)

Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« on: February 06, 2024, 09:38:53 PM »
I found this in an online auction and I had to have it.  The barrel is 16 3/4" long, in about .38 caliber.  I am fairly confident that it is southern made.  The barrel appears to have been sliced together about midway, possibly forge welded.  It is rifled all the way and there are no snags or anomalies when I run a patch down the bore.  The under rib, ramrod pipe and front sight are old and match the gun perfectly. Interseting piece and I love it.   




























Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15822
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2024, 11:11:18 PM »
Long barrel for sure, but a bear pistol - not likely at all. Even if .50 cal. I would not call it a bear pistol.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2024, 12:05:30 AM »
Long barrel for sure, but a bear pistol - not likely at all. Even if .50 cal. I would not call it a bear pistol.

IMHO, 'bear pistol' is just a name given to these long barreled pistols. There does not seem to be any early records showing these type pistols were ever used to hunt bear.  I think it is a more modern moniker.  I certainly would NEVER shoot a bear with a .38 cal. anything.

CH

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2024, 09:46:43 PM »
Long barrel for sure, but a bear pistol - not likely at all. Even if .50 cal. I would not call it a bear pistol.

IMHO, 'bear pistol' is just a name given to these long barreled pistols. There does not seem to be any early records showing these type pistols were ever used to hunt bear.  I think it is a more modern moniker.  I certainly would NEVER shoot a bear with a .38 cal. anything.

CH

(Spock eyebrow raise)

It was my understanding that family tradition at least linked the Matt Gillespie and the Montreville Plott pistols with bear hunting. The Plott pistol has a comparatively short barrel, but the Gillespie piece fits the usual criteria for a "bear pistol" pretty well, and is where the moniker comes from, I think.

As for caliber considerations, I don't think what someone might do today while hunting under modern game laws and fair chase conventions have much bearing on what earlier generations might use to dispatch black bears treed by packs of hounds or caught in traps (whether steel legholds or wooden pens). I don't want to risk the wrath of the moderators be specifically bring up modern cartridges, but I think it is pretty evident that up until a couple generations ago there were a lot of folks that were comfortable hunting big game, even bear, using loads that would be considered woefully inadequate today. As for why, I suspect that better levels of marksmanship and stalking skills, different hunting techniques, less concern about potential suffering on the part of the prey, and less (or no) influence by commercial interests competing for the ammunition market by hawking more and more powerful products were all factors.

In other words, I bet that if you are in a position to walk right up to the bear and put the muzzle to its ear, a .38 pistol works just fine...
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Avlrc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
    • Hampshire County Long Rifles
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2024, 10:33:38 PM »
Nice find. Congratulations. We would have been bidding against each other if I had seen it.  :)

Thanks for sharing.

Offline Bill Paton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2024, 10:37:09 PM »
Interesting discussion on this pistol. The barrel joint looks like a precision machining job. That unique and fascinating sear adjustment screw looks like something added for target shooting. I don’t see a half cock notch. Does it have one? I like the pistol and sure would like to know more about the barrel extension. Thanks for posting it and giving us so much to ponder.

I am aware of close range dispach of large animals with small firearms, not that I would choose that method.

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2024, 08:30:12 PM »
Interesting discussion on this pistol. The barrel joint looks like a precision machining job. That unique and fascinating sear adjustment screw looks like something added for target shooting. I don’t see a half cock notch. Does it have one? I like the pistol and sure would like to know more about the barrel extension. Thanks for posting it and giving us so much to ponder.

I am aware of close range dispach of large animals with small firearms, not that I would choose that method.

Bill Paton

Actually the spot where this is an apparent joint is not an even joint.  It is rather crooked there.  If it were done on a lathe, it would be a squared up, even line.   


Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2024, 08:32:53 PM »
Nice find. Congratulations. We would have been bidding against each other if I had seen it.  :)

Thanks for sharing.

With the buyer's premium and the outrageous shipping cost, it was not a bargain.   Still, I do like it a lot.

Offline Bill Paton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2024, 09:02:50 PM »
CH,
I have to agree with you. I couldn’t see that in the original views. I’m even more intrigued now!

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2024, 01:09:46 AM »
CH,
I have to agree with you. I couldn’t see that in the original views. I’m even more intrigued now!

Bill Paton

Thanks Bill.  It is rather puzzling. 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4177
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2024, 02:00:10 AM »
(1)  Super cool!  Great pistol.

(2)  I have never seen an old forge weld like that with that precise a line.  I'm really not sure what I'm seeing but I too am extremely intrigued.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2024, 07:47:57 PM »
I wonder if the barrel didn't sit leaning in a bucket of rust remover, browning, or some such solution at the line level?
Do you see anything similar in the inside of the barrel?
John Robbins

Offline Bill Paton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2024, 08:37:39 PM »
John, I think you may have (de)solved this mystery! Smart thinking “inside the can”. The line shows up on the rib also, which I missed before. Now, if the breech and tang are different finishes compared to the other iron parts, I suspecr somebody soaked the breech and tang in something more mild than rust remover to try to unbreech the barrel. I think rust remover would probably have been harsher in changing the finish, but some penetrating chemicals may have been gentler. If the breech end and tang match the other iron parts, the muzzle was probably soaked (less likely).

CH, Can you carry this ball and tell us what you think?

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1104
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2024, 10:18:59 PM »
There are also some faint "tooth marks" right at the joint seen in one picture at least, almost like the barrel was held in a pair of pliers or vice at that spot, maybe when it was being dunked or de-breeched.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 07:59:12 PM by Seth Isaacson »
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Avlrc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
    • Hampshire County Long Rifles
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2024, 11:37:31 PM »
I wonder if the barrel didn't sit leaning in a bucket of rust remover, browning, or some such solution at the line level?
Do you see anything similar in the inside of the barrel?

Good eye.

Offline mbriggs

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 559
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2024, 03:46:28 AM »
Chris,

Neat looking pistol. The silver inlays and long tang can't help but remind me of the Jamestown School in North Carolina.

I have seen nine Jamestown pistols in the past. Five of them were signed, four had no signature. I have three of them in my collection.
 Most of the examples I have seen were underhammer percussion, but three
were similar architecture to your pistol. Without a barrel signature or double dovetailed front sight, we will never know for sure,  but I suspect it is from here.

Thanks for posting it.

Michael Briggs
C. Michael Briggs

Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2024, 08:24:57 PM »
Chris,

Neat looking pistol. The silver inlays and long tang can't help but remind me of the Jamestown School in North Carolina.

I have seen nine Jamestown pistols in the past. Five of them were signed, four had no signature. I have three of them in my collection.
 Most of the examples I have seen were underhammer percussion, but three
were similar architecture to your pistol. Without a barrel signature or double dovetailed front sight, we will never know for sure,  but I suspect it is from here.

Thanks for posting it.

I would love to see some photos of the pistols mentioned.  Thanks

Michael Briggs

Offline Ed

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2024, 07:13:33 AM »
Beautiful find defiantly one of kind

Offline cshirsch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 340
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2024, 08:18:02 PM »
Chris,

Neat looking pistol. The silver inlays and long tang can't help but remind me of the Jamestown School in North Carolina.

I have seen nine Jamestown pistols in the past. Five of them were signed, four had no signature. I have three of them in my collection.
 Most of the examples I have seen were underhammer percussion, but three
were similar architecture to your pistol. Without a barrel signature or double dovetailed front sight, we will never know for sure,  but I suspect it is from here.

Thanks for posting it.

Michael Briggs

I would love to see some photos of the pistols you mentioned.

Chris

Offline Habu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Interesting Southern pistol (bear pistol?)
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2024, 06:33:52 AM »
Any idea of the time frame when the Jamestown pistols were being made? 

(When I saw the pistol originally posted I was struck by the resemblance to several pistols made in OH post-1870.  I've always thought of these pistols as being single-shots inspired by revolvers.  One, made by JN Maxey probably about 1870, is very close to a Colt 1860 in dimensions and balance.  I've often wondered if perhaps the makers or buyers were thinking of pistols seen/handled/carried during the war.)