Brown Bess Escutcheon Thumb Plate 43 Regiment

[NJArt]

This was dug in Southern NJ. Maybe a pocket piece. Interested if anyone can identify the backmaks on this thumb plate.
The partial thumb is 1mm thick and 28mm at its widest.
Thanks, Art.

[smart dog]

Hi,
The "H" is probably for Thomas Hollier who supplied a lot of brass mounts.  The arrow probably indicates government ownership.  I am not sure it is a thumb plate from a musket.  I don't see any evidence of the boss on the back side into which the wrist bolt threaded.

dave

[120RIR]

At 1mm thick, it's way too thin for a Bess wrist escutcheon but obviously, it was from some kind of regimentally marked gear.  I don't see an "H" on the reverse or a broad arrow.  Maybe an "I" but then, there are a lot of random scratches, dings, and marks there.  Regardless, it's a nice little piece! 

An old friend in Hunterdon County (central NJ, north of Trenton) has a 44th Regt. 1756 Long Land pattern Bess that was supposedly in the family since the 18th century.  It was converted to percussion and no doubt saw a lot of use as a fowler along the Delaware but otherwise, completely original and untouched with some very folksy decorative carving in the buttstock.  Regimental numbers typically (emphasis on "typically") weren't on the escutcheons but sure enough, there it was along with a company letter and a rack number.

[NJArt]

Thank you. It is a neat little piece. I ordered a replica thumb plate on line it matches the replica almost perfectly except for the width. The piece has a small area at 12 o'clock area of the edge about the same width as the small nub on the 12 o'clock of the replica. I dont know much about them but I think I would bet the house on this one. It is such an odd shape. Art

[smart dog]

Hi Art,
You have to have evidence of the boss.  Do you?  Without that there is no way it was a wrist plate no matter how much you want to believe it is.

dave

[NJArt]

[smart dog]

Hi Art,
Thanks for that photo.  So it could be broken just above the boss and the nub broken or filed off and then worn very thin.  Maybe it is a thumb plate.  The 43rd spent a lot of time in New York City and Long Island during the Rev War so there might be plenty of opportunity for muskets to have found their way to NJ.

dave

[NJArt]

Thanks Dave. I agree as there were a few Loyalist buttons found along with other regimental buttons from the homestead, you never know.

[NJArt]

If anyone knows of anyone who could possibly help in sheding some light on the back marks or maker
marks could you please forward or send me their contact info. Thank you in advance, Art.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I wrote previously that I see a possible "H" and an arrow on the back.  Those marks almost certainly identify Thomas Hollier as the maker of the brass. Hollier had  a monopoly on supplying brass hardware and bayonets to British ordnance from about 1730-1754.  Hartwell and Mayor took over during 1754-1761, and then Jane Mayor supplied brass from 1761 to 1819. I am not aware that any of those later suppliers stamped the backs of their hardware. Those suppliers did not make the musket.  The musket was assembled from contractor supplied parts by "setter uppers" in either the Tower of London or Dublin Castle. During the Rev War, contractors began supplying completed muskets because the ordnance system could not meet the demand. That continued somewhat into the 19th century.

dave

[5judge]

By the way, International Military Antiques (IMA) currently lists a Long Land 'Bess with barrel engraved "43 REG-T"

[NJArt]

Thank you all. Dave does an illustration of makers marks exsist? And thank you

[backsplash75]

By the way, International Military Antiques (IMA) currently lists a Long Land 'Bess with barrel engraved "43 REG-T"

Amazing how many features from different patterns are on that one, not to mention the YC markings. 

[JV Puleo]

I am highly skeptical of anything that has passed through their hands....markings especially.

[Levy]

I once worked on a naval cutlass recovered from the wreck of the HMS Fowey that was marked T. Hollier on the guard.  James Levy

[smart dog]

Hi,
Goldstein and Mowbray's book on Brown Besses shows a few examples and I believe Bailey's book on pattern dates for British small arms does as well.  The marks for Hollier varied a bit with the "H" and arrow stamped separately so they don't necessarily line up.

dave

[NJArt]

Great info. Thanks again for your time and knowledge Dave. It is important as I'm donating this to my local museum and I wanted an accurate accounting. Art

[Bob Gerard]

If it was a thumb piece as it might have been, someone pounded it flat for some reason ( there appear to be hammer marks?). Maybe made into a keep-sake souvenir or something.

[Mattox Forge]

The broken edge would correspond to where the escutcheon might break if the stock was broken through the wrist. The hammer marks could just be where the bent piece was flatened. The fastest way to deliberately destroy a musket to prevent further use is to smash the wrist against a tree or a post. Surrendering British troops might have done that to prevent reuse of their muskets.
Mike

[NJArt]

The broken edge would correspond to where the escutcheon might break if the stock was broken through the wrist. The hammer marks could just be where the bent piece was flatened. The fastest way to deliberately destroy a musket to prevent further use is to smash the wrist against a tree or a post. Surrendering British troops might have done that to prevent reuse of their muskets.
Mike

Thanks, it's very possible as Loyalist buttons showed up in the homestead footprint encased in a thick hard ash I assume it was the uniform, it places it inside when the fire accured.

[NJArt]

If it was a thumb piece as it might have been, someone pounded it flat for some reason ( there appear to be hammer marks?). Maybe made into a keep-sake souvenir or something.

Yes I noticed those mark's and my first thoughts were a vice or pliers. It was flattened but it wasnt all the way and still is slightly convex.