Author Topic: Anti-scale strategies?  (Read 1542 times)

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19520
Anti-scale strategies?
« on: March 06, 2024, 06:07:59 PM »
I want to make a footed tool for leveling inlets. I’ll cut off a piece of a new coarse file and braze a steel rod above it for a handle. I’d like to protect the teeth of the file from scale while doing this. Might even want to anneal the file piece and shape it w/o worrying about losing temper, then quench after the braze runs. Thoughts on how to prevent scale? Some kind of flux? Would rubbing with soapstone work?
Andover, Vermont

Offline JPK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2024, 06:16:58 PM »
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7905
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2024, 07:10:38 PM »
I have made a few of those tools just by bending smaller three corner files. Since they were going to be used to clean up the inside\bottom of lock and trigger inlets I never rehardend them. I ground safe sides on one edge.

Offline Randall Steffy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2024, 08:10:20 PM »
IIRC someone here, possibly Smart Dog, suggested or recommends a coating or several of pure boric acid powder thinned with alcohol as a preventative of scale.

Offline P.W.Berkuta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2024, 08:27:42 PM »
Here is a write-up on using Boric Acid paste to prevent scaling:

"One of the industrial uses of boric acid was listed as "hardening steel". I thought "That's odd... I don't remember that being a step in my heat to cherry red, won't attract a magnet, quench in the backfat of a virgin slave on the harvest moon heat treat procedure." So, I did some more looking, and found that our friends in the jewelry and gunsmithing community use boric acid to prevent scaling when heating precious metals or heat treating precision firearms parts. It prevents oxidation and washes away in hot water or in alcohol, and that is the one thing that boric acid is very soluble in at room temperature.

Anyway, once I was resonably sure that anti-scale compounds were by and large just boric acid, I had to actually find a source of the stuff. Boric acid is an excellent insecticide, and is sold as a safe, natural way to decimate the local cockroach and silverfish populations
Ingredients:99% orthoboric acid, 1% other ingredients. For a little more than $6/lb with no shipping, I effectively have the same stuff that costs 3 times as much. I bought a little denatured alcohol because I wanted to just dip and go.

Now, I don't think this is going to be the have all end all, as it probably starts to chemically attack steels at high temp. Judging from PBC's website, it's about 1600 degrees. That doesn't concern me too much as I use O-1 and 1095 a lot. At those temps, it might be best to use anhydrous borax and deal with the bark, or break down and use a commercial compound. I might have to try borax and try removing it with hot water with hot vinegar or cold muriatic acid. Borax is a base, so an acid might have better luck removing it than just hot water."

I've use this before and it does work.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19520
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2024, 08:50:40 PM »
Thanks! I do have borax and use it fur brazing flux. I removed it with vinegar. I’ll give it a try!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2024, 08:33:11 PM »
 Heck, if you have vinegar just give an old file a good soak and it will sharpen up plenty good enough to level inlets. I ordered some 45% vinegar from Amazon, and WOW does it sharpen files, and rasps. It also makes some kickass vinegaroon as well.

Hungry Horse

Offline Bill Raby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2024, 02:30:06 AM »
Mix boric acid and alcohol. Dunk whatever you are working on and then light it on fire. This will burn off the alcohol and leave a coating of boric acid. When you heat it up the boric acid will melt and be an airtight coating.

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19520
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2024, 03:55:26 AM »
Bill, sounds fast and FUN!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Robert Hill

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2024, 05:31:04 AM »
I second the boric acid strategy I have done that on the ends of my chasing tools to keep scale from forming when I go to quench them.
-Robert Hill

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2024, 05:47:12 PM »
I want to make a footed tool for leveling inlets. I’ll cut off a piece of a new coarse file and braze a steel rod above it for a handle. I’d like to protect the teeth of the file from scale while doing this. Might even want to anneal the file piece and shape it w/o worrying about losing temper, then quench after the braze runs. Thoughts on how to prevent scale? Some kind of flux? Would rubbing with soapstone work?
If you use too much flux it may cause brass to flow where you don’t want it. I would think that Kasenit or Cherry Red on the cutting face would work too and prevent decarb of that area. Especially if its an import file made of casehardened mild steel which I have head was the case with some.
And I would surely anneal and shape to suit. Polish the non-cutting edges so they will not cut or abrade  So far as that goes if annealed one could drill and tap and not worry about brazing. Shape, reharden, draw back slightly, 375 maybe. Put some 271 Loctite or epoxy on the threads and screw in a handle
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2024, 05:54:02 PM »
Heck, if you have vinegar just give an old file a good soak and it will sharpen up plenty good enough to level inlets. I ordered some 45% vinegar from Amazon, and WOW does it sharpen files, and rasps. It also makes some kickass vinegaroon as well.

Hungry Horse
Back years ago a company I worked for bought an acid “file sharpening” system. Yeah it made them sharp again but they plugged so quickly since there was now pitting in the teeth that it was essentially just a really expensive and time consuming way to prepare a file for scrapping. So if a file gets too far gone to use I just buy a new one.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2531
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2024, 01:11:19 AM »
Bill Raby is right - boric acid and alcohol, leaves a great coating for no scale.  Used in most jewelry repairs.  We then dumped the item (gold, silver, etc) into a pickle - a light acid, even vinegar, but kept warm, about 150 F.  couple minutes, then wash in water.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2024, 04:12:18 PM »
Folks are mentioning boric acid.  Would straight borax as in Twenty Mule Team Borax washing powder be just as effective?

Offline B.Habermehl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Anti-scale strategies?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2024, 04:29:37 AM »
I’ve used 20 mule team borax for braising flux. Worked fine, also for silver solder. BJH
BJH