Yardage/Accuracy. Barrel Length and Twist.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Hey all, New here, been occupying some time over on the rifle builders forum
Joe S. suggested I bring my question over here as to the Title of the post.

What barrels are you guy's using, what type of yardage are you shooting at and accuracy ?.
Ball and patch shooting is what I want to stay with.

My first build will be a Rice 42" Swamped barrel. .54 Caliber.

Looking forward to some information.
Thanks.

[smylee grouch]

This can be a real can-o-worms. It starts with the definition of accuracy.   Accurate to some is keeping your shots on a steel gong while others might say clover leaf groups at a certain yardage. Gentelmen, start your volly.   😁

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Sure, I understand that/

So I'll restate this
Accuracy  in distance, Target paper Hunting shooting inside the last hole you shot accuracy
How many yards out has someone taken a Elk or a deer?.

[recurve]

100yrds groups

50yrd groups

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Good shooting. Thanks.

[smylee grouch]

A 58 cal perc. 1-75 rot  110 gr 2f Goex   7.5 " 5 shot 130 yd string measure around outside of group/ Same gun/load 155 yd called shot on full size northern deer.                                                                        A 58 cal flint  110 gr swiss 2f   135 yd shot on full size northern deer    1-72                                                                A different 58 flint same load   110 yd shot on a 180 lb northern WT buck    1-70 One Moose at 80 yds                                                 A different 58 cal perc  110 gr 2fGoex   110 yd shot on Pronghorn Buck      1-66                                                         These were my longest shots on game. Top 58 was my 200 Meter Silhouette gun                                             All game shots were rested shots with younger eyes.

[alacran]

If I have to take a shot at an elk or a deer with a muzzleloader over 50 yards I feel I'm doing a lousy job of hunting.
Shortest shot on elk 20 yards, longest 95 yards., average out of 8 is 40 yards. All with 54 calibers both cap and flint 95 grain 2f with the flint and 100 grains 2f with the cap. I've shot deer with a variety of calibers from .45 to .61, longest shot was an Eastern whitetail at 90 yards shortest was about 30 yards.
Don't really need a bench accuracy capable rifle to kill game. A rifle capable of keeping the ball in a 6 inch circle of a rest, is more than adequate.
The question is not the rifle but the shooter.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Sorry for any confusion folks, I'm trying to learn what a .54 caliber is capable of shoot with accuracy at a distance.
So Yardage, what is anyone ever shot a target at (Yardage, with accuracy.

[Mike Brooks]

I'm limited by my sights more than any other factor. About 75 yards on deer sized targets with open iron sights. 50 yards is better.

[Hawg]

I'm not a target shooter so once I get a load dialed in it never sees paper again. 31 inch .54 Douglas barrel. 1:66 twist. 90 grains of Swiss 2F. Measured 65 yard behind the ear headshot on a doe.

[smylee grouch]

What is your definition of accuracy? I know a lot of people who use a 54 for cross six matches out to 100

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

OK, let's try this, this way.....

how many of you guy's feel the capability to shoot beyond 100 yards.
anyone shoot further than 100, 200, or more.

If so, what are you using to achieve this distance.

Accuracy is hitting the target/ subject you're aiming at with proficiency
so in this case I'm trying to find out what is the capability of this rifle
.54 Caliber 42" barrel

[ScottNE]

It will depend on your definition of accuracy, but prior to a host of other time-consuming projects I was dialing in a .54 rifle with 42" swamped Rice barrel.

I was getting temporary "paper plate" accuracy at 100 yards. When I say temporary, it is because after half a dozen or so shots, my POI would start to drop relative to my POA, and I never got around to chasing that issue that down before life caused me to shelve that project. That said, if I were keeping all my rounds on a paper plate at 100 yards without the vertical stringing creeping in after 6-10 shots, I'd have been satisfied and wouldn't have considered any further adjustments. But paper plate accuracy at 100 yards with very little development effort tells me that barring a manufacturing defect, .54 caliber, 42" Rice barrels are capable of very good accuracy (a data set of 1 obviously, but I think that assuming Rice barrels are manufactured to a consistent standard is a safe assumption to make), and that, eliminating some inconsistencies, I could have been achieving better accuracy and settling for keeping them on a paper plate at 100 yards would be settling for less than the rifle is capable of. Your mileage may vary, but I think now that ease of loading, not having to develop a consistent swabbing routine, etc, ie any factor but the absolute accuracy that the rifle/barrel are capable of, should be very distant considerations.

As an aside, I was at the time using a .530 roundball, can't recall the patch thickness, but it was overall a less than bore-sized load, and even so that barrel presented a decent initial group as mentioned. When I pick that rifle (or any rifle, life permitting) up again, I'd start with a bore-sized or even slightly over-bore-sized patch and ball, probably a straight .54 roundball.

EDIT with regards to your clarification, 100 yards was the maximum distance I had available. But with fairly promising preliminary results at 100 -- while I can't say from personal experience, I would not hesitate to expect good accuracy at 150 or 200 yards if you have the opportunity to practice and develop loads at those distances.

[Kurt]

This is just me. I have one rifle, a 50-caliber flintlock, that I have shot cloverleaf groups with off a bench at 50 yards. Using that rifle I have killed deer in the field at approximately that range. I have also completely missed a deer at approximately 90 yards using a monopod rest. My current thinking is to not shoot at any more beyond 75 yards while hoping they all show up at 50 yards. 1 in 48 twist 80 grains of 2F. It is my opinion that the rifle will consistently shoot the cloverleaf groups. It is my thinking that I can't.

[Hungry Horse]

 You seem to be concerned with the guns performance at a given range. Actually your performance is usually the real question. I would say around a hundred yards is not only the point where you have to start using Kentucky windage, but also where the velocity has bled off to the point that if you are not dead on a vital part of the animal you’re likely to be in for some serious tracking.
 
 A fellow club member is an avid big game hunter with modern firearms, but decided he wanted to try his hand at taking big game with a muzzleloader. He decided  his maximum range would be 200 yards. I told him at 200 yards it wasn’t about accuracy, it was about velocity, and penetration, and if he didn’t believe me to go to our range, and run some tests. He did and came back and said his gun was a hundred yard gun.

 Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Some years back (decades?) we had a 200yard postal match here at ALR. There were only 3 entries. Taylor, myself and George? the originator. Sorry, I cannot remember his "handle". Guess that
was a long time ago, maybe 2008?
In warming up for the match, both Taylor and I managed a 5 shot group at 200yards from a bench-rest, of 2 1/2". Flukes? Probably. Both of us were shooting round balls and 2F GOEX powder.
He used a .62 Hawken of his own make, with 34" 66" ROT, a .615" ball and 10 ounce denim patch, which at that time, measured .0225" thick. He also used WindshieldWasherFluid+ a tich of Neetsfoot oil over 127gr. 2F GOEX.
I used my .69 cal. Sporting Rifle, 31" bl. with 66" ROT, .682" ball and 12 ounce denim (.030") with the same WWWF lube and 140gr. 2F GOEX.
The contest was 2 different positions, but no bench. Interesting shoot. The .69 won the match. We shoot without wiping or swabbing the bore at any time.
At that time, I had a 300yard leaf on the rear sight. We used to have a 24" saw blade gong at 300 yards and used that during rendezvous, once a year. I filed that sight for that target. Shooting
at it was always done standing/offhand. Everyone who shot at that gong with my rifle, hit it. Never a miss (4 of us) but no one would shoot it twice. That was back in the late 1980's.  Nowadays, the rifle only has sights for 100, 150 and 200meters with the hunting load. With the plinking load of only 85gr. of 2F, the sights zero at 50, 100 and 150.
The bore has slicked up enough after over 5,000 shots, that I can get by with a 10 ounce denim. This new material measures .021". The rifle is still shooting well and winning the odd match.
These are photos Taylor took of me shooting my little rifle, at the 200yard match. This was the standing position we used.
The first pic. is aiming at the 200yard target. The second caught the recoil almost at the peak of travel. That was with 140gr. which was dead on at 200yards. My moose load of 165gr. was dead on at 200 meters with that sight blade(3-blade and standing sight.)

[Joe S.]

As you can see Smoke Poll, you came to the right place for this discussion. I think the, your milage varys  is a great point. Every one of these folks put enough lead down field to figure out what works for them and a particular rifle. I would take what they say as a starting point, when you get that rifle built, then the other adventure begins, the first being the build. You get, after range time what works best for you, type of powder, patch type,thickness, lube,swab, no swab and on...work up that load, all this is the fun part of the journey. You being 54 cal.specific, folks can tell you what works best for them but ultimately, every one of these rifles is different and will be diet specific

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Yes Sir, and thanks guy's much appreciated.
That was the general Idea behind the question for sure
to get a foundation of what works, for the most part.

Been shooting enough over the years  to know
different rifles like different powder bullets,  ect.

Again thanks everyone. Just gather intel.

[Daryl]

As far as range goes in hunting, your capabilities, excitability and your load's ability all come into determining what your maximum range should be.
Some people are highly excitable when they have an animal in their sights, while others only get excited after the animal is down. Taylor and I both
fall into that second group and I am talking an extreme level excitement.
Lt. James Forsyth wrote, in 1860 (published in 1862) that he 'once killed a sambar stag (Indian Deer) at a range of 250yards using his 14 bore rifle.
The ball passed through both shoulders. The load was a "mere 3 drams", which is only 82gr. of #6 Curtis and Harvey's best. I chronographed a similar
load in my 14 bore rifle (.69) using GOEX 3F and it developed 1,225fps. Later, using 85gr. GOEX 2F, I chronographed a vel. of 1,240fps. Having multiple
leaf sights and actually practicing at those ranges, helps in skill and confidence. It also shows you what you and your gun are capable of. I do not sug-
gest shooting animals at extended ranges, but know full well, my "little" rifle and I am fully capable to 150yards or so. I also use a laser rangefinder
on all shots on game. My moose have been closer than that, every time. During the last week of Sept. and 1st week of October, bulls can be called in to
inside 20 yards, in many cases & to 100yards, even with the younger, 1 1/2year old bulls(2 pointers).

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Thanks Daryl.

[Habu]

Back in 2013-2015 I did some fairly extensive shooting with an original Dickert out to 400 yards.  As best I recall, bore was about .49 caliber, load was 80-85 grains of FFg (whatever load gave me around 1850fps with a particular lot of powder), patch was .014" linen lubed with neatsfoot oil, ball was around .469-.470.  Twist was 1:48-"ish".  Depending on winds, I could usually get a 16"-18" ten-shot group offhand at 200 yards.  Using a standing rest at 300 yards, I usually got ten-shot groups about 24" high and 4'-5' wide.  I don't recall ever shooting a ten-shot group at 400 yards, I think I regarded it as futile. 

I've played with the same course with a few other rifles over the years, am starting that with the kit gun I put together to teach an introductory class in flintlocks.  Barrel is 43" (IIRC), twist is 1:70 (again, IIRC), bore is .54 caliber (at least I"m sure of that!).  My current load (not the load my students use) is typically 110-120 FFg (again, whatever load gives me ~1850 with a particular lot of powder), .016" cotton patch lubed with neatsfoot oil, .534" ball. 

I haven't played with shooting for groups at longer ranges yet, still "plinking" at IPSC silhouettes at 200/300/400 yards.  On those (counting any hit on the silhouette) from a modified prone I'm getting about ~90% hits at 200 yards, ~60% hits at 300 yards, and ~20% at 400 yards.  Interestingly enough, if I drop ball size to .530" and bump the powder charge about 7 grains, my hit percentages are about the same.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Great information. Much appreciated, as well as someone who like to practice distant shooting.

[Ghillie]

I had a 36" barreled .54 caliber that I deer hunted with.  I have taken deer quartering with complete pass through at 125 yards.  I once shoot on paper at 200 yards and with my 100 yard sights had to hold over @ 3 ft to get them on paper.  I thought it too risky to shot at animals at that distance,  But with the 100 grain powder charge figured that 150 yards was my maximum distance if all was in my favor with open woods and essentially no wind.  Even then I was dubious and never attempted to shoot that far on game.  At 125 I knew I was good.  Most game killed was 40-100 yards.  As stated previously penetration is key and extreme distances are working against you.

[Jeff Murray]

I have used a .50 caliber flintlock with a Getz round bottom rifled barrel for most hunting and much "shooting".  Longest shot was 120 +/- yards on an antelope.  Kind of hard to get much closer to their evil eyes.   Multiple elk from 20 to 60-70 yards.  Most other hunting shots were 60 yards or less.  Best competition targets were shot off of cross sticks on NMLRA targets.  At 50 yards on the large bull 50-4X and at 100 yards on the large bull 49X.  Wish I could still see like I used to.  As far as long shots on game, why not put the "hunt" back in hunting and get up close and personal.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Not stating that I'm going hunting for 400 yards out.
Again just trying to learn what these are capable pf doing.
Been Hunting and shooting for over 50 years, I don't take a shot unless I know it's going to drop where I shot it, or pretty close by.