Ignition speed and offhand shooting with flintlocks

[rich pierce]

I’m becoming more convinced that reliable quick ignition is a very big factor in how well I can shoot a flintlock offhand. I have 2 rifles that shoot equally well off the bench. I can shoot the one with seemingly faster ignition much better offhand. Probably everybody knows this already. 

Unfortunately the one I shoot better is a heavier gun, about 9 pounds. Now you’re going to tell me it’s the weight!

Thoughts?

[john bohan]

Well Rich you'll just have to do like me, make sure when you are hunting that your near a tree to lean on.

[Bob Gerard]

Or bring a tree with you 😝

[Hawg]

It's probably how the heavier gun fits you. if you can shoulder a gun with your eyes closed then open them and the sights are lined up perfectly you're going to shoot that gun better than one you have to move your head around to get a good sight picture.

[Daryl]

Taylor and I both like 9 1/2 to 11 pounds for an offhand rifle.
For us, the heavier the rifle, the slower the movement. The slower the movement, the less
the gun moves off the centre during the ignition cycle.
At some point, this would out-weigh the faster ignition benefit as the lighter the gun, the more
and faster the movements.
Of course LOP and weigh bias comes into the equation as well.  You'll never know what's best for
you, unless you try a bunch of different rifles with different features.
Off the bench, like Rich I can shoot flinters equally even against cap locks, but - offhand is a different game
for me.

[alacran]

I have a .54 cal flintlock that shoots very well. It weighs less than seven pounds and has a Rayl 42 inch barrel including the patent breech. I also have a .45 cal flintlock with a 40 inch Douglas XX barrel that also shoots very well it weighs 12.25 pounds. The .54 has an L&R classic lock that is very quick. The .45 has a Peter Allen lock, which I bought from Tip Curtis. It resembles a late English lock.
The .54 will wear you out with recoil on a long match. It is better suited for trail walks. The .45 can wear you out with weight unless you practice with it regularly.
The one thing in common with this rifles is that I made them to fit me. 

[Maven]

I don't think it's one factor, but ignition delay is certainly significant.  However, so are weight/balance, stock design (how well the gun fits you), ball and patch fit, etc.  Btw, even with my CF rifles where there is no appreciable delay in firing, I still have problems with shooting off hand.

[Marcruger]

Hi Rich,

I do believe that you are correct about the speed of ignition being important in offhand muzzleloading.

The term in my mind is "dwell time", or the time from when your finger breaks the trigger to when the ball leaves the muzzle.  The longer the dwell time the more chance for the muzzle to aimed where you DON'T want it when the ball exits.  Everything from ball velocity, to lock speed, to flint type and condition, to touch hole diameter, to priming powder, to cleanliness of pan and flint, to barrel length will all affect offhand shooting.  It is all about how fast you can get that ball out of the barrel while the sights are on target.  In my opinion a swamped barrel helps keep that muzzle hanging there while the ball heads down the bore. 

If I was making a dedicated competition offhand gun (ignoring traditional looks), I would use a 30" barrel, medium heavy swamped 40 caliber and add a Chambers Late Ketland tuned by Brad Emig.  The small 40 ball can be driven fairly fast with little recoil, and the short barrel will reduce the time to get to the muzzle.  Also, the Chambers Late Ketland is a very fast lock.  Throw in a good set trigger and I would be happy.  Something like a Lancaster style stock works best for me.  Just thinking out loud.  If I was REALLY wanting to win matches, the ignition would be percussion (but I love flintlocks a lot more).  Even the best flinters cannot hang with percussion in speed of ignition, unless something is wrong with the cap gun. 

So yes indeed I believe lock speed is a key component to good offhand shooting.  That is also why I use 4f Swiss for priming.  Pletch's excellent testing clearly shows 4f is faster than 3f, which is clearly faster than 2f in the pan.  Will 2f make a gun go off?  Yes, but not as fast as 4f.  NullB is fastest, but in my climate it plates the pan with hardened graphite, so I dropped back to the slightly slower 4f. 

In modern suppository weapons the barrels are short and speed is so high that little of this comes into play.  That is why the bench technique for modern weapons will trip up a newcomer to muzzleloading.  They don't realize they need to control that long barrel until the ball exits. 

Long winded answer to saying "Yes, lock speed is an important contributor to good offhand shooting." 

God Bless, and Happy Easter to All,    Marc

[Hungry Horse]

 I think the real problem is too many rifles. The old timers seemed to be able to protect themselves, and feed their families with guns that were phenomenally inferior to the ones available today. But they shot that gun all the time, and learn all its little quirks. We don’t learn to hold through a slow ignition, we switch guns.

Hungry Horse

[Flint62Smoothie]

I do believe that you are correct about the speed of ignition being important in offhand muzzleloading ...
Long winded answer to saying "Yes, lock speed is an important contributor to good offhand shooting."

In his extensive testing, Larry Pletcher did agree that good mechanical lock time is a requirement for a well performing flintlock, but when you consider that the ignition time alone is 61% of the total lock/ignition time ... then it is likely the gun that BEST fits YOU, that you can hold 'still' all the way through the break of the shot and the follow through, is that which may be the best.

Not sure we can empirically measure that, LOL!

If this comment matters at all, I find it most interesting that a 40-cal longrifle has posted the top overall score, of 4 aggregates shot, at the last 3 NE Flintlock Championship Shoots ... not sure 'bout years earlier. The course of fire is all offhand, consisting of a bullseye target @ 25-Yards, novelty target @ 25Y, and then a bullseye target at both 50 and 100Y. I had posted the top score @ 100Y using a 45-cal last year and a 50-cal the year before; my 1st two years attending it, but will be trying a 40-cal this year ... only because I have one to try ...

[Hungry Horse]

 You guys keep yammering on about caliber, when the most highly rated caliber won’t shoot worth beans with the wrong barrel twist. I have a .50 cal. Barrel with a 1 in 72” twist that shoots great with about a hundred grains of 2F but when it’s loaded with 50 grains I can almost outshoot it with my tradegun. Way back when exotic twists were pretty much only seen on high end target gun, and sporting rifles.

 Years ago I was given a pile of old muzzleloader barrels that had been leaning in the corner of a blacksmiths shop for years. A friend and I cleaned them out and checked the caliber, and twists on each one. They were all 1 in 48” except one that had either been bored, or built, smooth. They ranged from about .31 cal to about .60 cal.

Hungry Horse

[Marvin S]

Even makers of center fire guns would brag about their lock time being fast. Sure it’s a big advantage!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm sure speed of ignition is a big factor, but of perhaps greater importance is consistency.  A percussion rifle has a slight advantage in that their ignition speed is constant, at least compared to a flintlock.

[Darkhorse]

Rich, When I was starting out with the flintlock I couldn't hit the barn door. Frustrated me to no end because I'd always been a dead nuts shot with percussions. At that time I thought ignition speed was the key ingredient. Now I feel a little different.
My main problem was flinching so I started a program to overcome it. Now it's gone completely. I can hold through a hangfire and still hit my target.
Being a beginning builder my locks were slow, inconsistent, with terrible trigger  pulls. Realizing this I set out to learn all I could about the flintlock mechanism. My first tuning produced a little better lock. So after deer season I again attempted to tune both my locks. Even better but not good enough. So a couple of years later I tried again. Now I had a better feel for shooting them and I became aware that my 40 was jarring the rifle and the sights off target when the trigger (set) was fired. Another challenge. This time I spent a lot more time working on those locks and it paid off.
I now had smooth fast firing locks, with good trigger pulls. The 40 no longer jarred the rifle at all. I took me while to get all that done but that was because I knew nothing when I started. I don't quit easy and I have been tested showing I possess very high mechanical aptitude which helped a lot.
So what's the most important?  All of them are. For me this was a case where several small improvements contributed to the whole. You can't just focus on speeding up ignition and expect top performance as a shooter.  At least I could'nt your mileage may vary.

[rich pierce]

Good input Darkhorse. So many variables. For sure a light fast lick helps. I think that’s why Chsmbers Late Ketland is such a favorite of the great offhand flintlock shooters I know.  I’m committed to practicing and competing with one gun only this year. I also moved my rear sight forward from where it was in 1979 when I was 26 years old and made a wider front sight.

[Bill in Md]

The speed of your lock as nothing to do with accuracy or how well you shoot. All of that stuff is up in our heads. It does not matter if your lock time is 2 full seconds. What matters is your ability to control your body to hold the rifle motionless during 2 explosions that occur near your face.

As in archery, poor results are the result of poor form. Poor form is always the issue. How I battle it is simple. I hold my rifle of choice shouldered for as long as I physically can focused on an imagined target on an almost daily basis. This aids in shoulder strength and steadiness.

[Tenmile]

My favorite flintlock has an L&R Manton that is really fast. I don’t wonder if it’s going to fire. I think this is an advantage, to me at least, over a slow lock. I do agree with you that a lot of shooting is psychological. When I first started shooting a flintlock it took me a year to quit jumping.
Lynn

[smylee grouch]

I was shooting  last weekend and forgot my prime flask back home so used my charge powder, 1&1\2 Swiss instead of the Null B in my flask. It of course worked but I thought I could detect a slower start.   

[Daryl]

The speed of your lock as nothing to do with accuracy or how well you shoot. All of that stuff is up in our heads. It does not matter if your lock time is 2 full seconds. What matters is your ability to control your body to hold the rifle motionless during 2 explosions that occur near your face.

As in archery, poor results are the result of poor form. Poor form is always the issue. How I battle it is simple. I hold my rifle of choice shouldered for as long as I physically can focused on an imagined target on an almost daily basis. This aids in shoulder strength and steadiness.

Some of us are mere mortals and a fast lock time is vital to our shooting success. I guess we just aren't as perfect as you say you are.

[alacran]

When shooting offhand the rifle is never motionless. That motion is referred to as wobble. Minimizing the wobble is what one strives for. Some days your wobble will be less than others. The more you practice the more you can control your wobble, but you can never stop it. Bad things happen when you try to fight it.

[Bill in Md]

The speed of your lock as nothing to do with accuracy or how well you shoot. All of that stuff is up in our heads. It does not matter if your lock time is 2 full seconds. What matters is your ability to control your body to hold the rifle motionless during 2 explosions that occur near your face.

As in archery, poor results are the result of poor form. Poor form is always the issue. How I battle it is simple. I hold my rifle of choice shouldered for as long as I physically can focused on an imagined target on an almost daily basis. This aids in shoulder strength and steadiness.

Some of us are mere mortals and a fast lock time is vital to our shooting success. I guess we just aren't as perfect as you say you are.

Actually Daryl, we are all. mortals, and while  I am not perfect, I do seek perfection as all men should. With that said, I simply said that lock ignition time has nothing to do accuracy from a physics standpoint. Something I thought most mature shooters understood. Provided a rifle has sound rifling, A patch that fills the rifling, and a snug ball and proper charge, the rifle will shoot in the same hole if shot from a mechanical bench, regardless if the lock time is 3 days long......While the flintlock on my rifle as been tuned by me (in that search for perfection) to be "fast", it is not as fast as say a  good percussion lock on a Hawken rifle, but that in no way shape or form makes the Hawken more "accurate" or easier to shoot.

Perhaps it would be better to say that while fast locks don't make guns any more accurate, they do give those who suffer from flinching at the shot a little better chance of staying on the paper.

[rich pierce]

As in any sport or endeavor, natural ability, practice, understanding, confidence, and equipment all come into play.

I hypothesize that set triggers were developed and utilized to allow for the gun to fire the first time the wobble is “right”.  In target shooting (I only shoot simple trigger guns) it’s often my second or third increase in trigger squeeze that yields the shot. Or potentially introduce less force applied to the gun which may alter aim. Or both. Oops, opened another topic. 

[Bob Roller]

Even makers of center fire guns would brag about their lock time being fast. Sure it’s a big advantage!

The fastest locks ever made are useless if their advantage is lost at the vent/flash hole.The English guns,as usual had the finest and fastest locks PLUS a vent to take advantage of it.The Manton rifle I fired at Tom Dawson's farm 50+years ago was as fast as my caplock Whitworth which had a top of the line Brazier lock.I dry fired that lock one time and the sparks were WHITE hot and sizzled in that tiny pan.I have yet to see ANY modern lock including mine that could do that.Some were better than others but not ONE up to the old Manton.Has ANYone in our time ever tried to see what those antique frizzens were made from??A modern center fire,especially a bolt action is an entirely different mechanical system and the cam/cock systems in them bears no resemblance to the ancient technology we discuss here.
Bob Roller
P:S How many beides me would be non functional on a keyboard if it had NO spell correct warnings?

[Bob Roller]

I'm sure speed of ignition is a big factor, but of perhaps greater importance is consistency.  A percussion rifle has a slight advantage in that their ignition speed is constant, at least compared to a flintlock.

Yes,and not the plaything of moisture and wind and a small flash hole that makes it a fuse instead of a detonator.The WERE valid reasons
for converting a flintlock gun to a caplock and the main one is that a more positive ignition system had arrived.Today a flintlock is a return to early ideas for recreation and to get an experience not experienced before.After experiencing Tom Dawsons Manton rifles performance I have never been satisfied with any flintlock I made after that.NO white hot sparks of sizzling in the pan.Good ignition,yes but in the past,better was obtainable with the flintlock.
Bob Roller
Bob Roller

[Jeff Murray]

There is no question that lock time has an impact on accuracy as the body motion tries to maintain sights on the target.  The book "Competitive Shooting" by A.A. Yur'Yev is an older text outlining the biomedical techniques used to develop the best world level competitive shooters.  Body position, breath control, stock fit and 'good' practice techniques all affect the outcome.  Anticipating the lock or recoil can result in Olympic level flinching which I unintentionally demonstrated while filming a video on what to do and not do many years ago for a class.  We had to edit the video to remove the shaking and wild movements of the guy filming while he was laughing at the flinch.  It was also interesting to see the difference in flash in the breech area between flint and cap ignition filmed in the dark.  I have both single and set trigger flintlocks.  Got good results with both but the set triggers seemed to have a slight advantage due to the difference in required trigger pressure.  Now old age and weaker eyes are the challenge.